Is there any downside to Torrefied Tops?

tralfamadan · July 2019

I realise guitars with torrefied/heat-treated tops have been around for a while but I am wondering if there is any downside to the heat treatment? The benefits seem amazing but I am wondering if there are any drawbacks to heat treating the top besides increased manufacturing & labour costs.

Certain manufacturers seem to sell non-torrefied and torrefied versions of the same guitar model; the latter being more expensive. Is there any case in which you wouldn't shoot for the torrefied version, costs aside?

Lewy · July 2019

Torrefaction generally makes for a more dry and punchy sound - that’s not what everyone is after. I can imagine someone into more modern fingerstyle stuff may well prefer the more complex sound of a non-torrefied top in a side by side comparison of otherwise identical guitars.

ICBM · July 2019

Lewy said:

Torrefaction generally makes for a more dry and punchy sound - that’s not what everyone is after. I can imagine someone into more modern fingerstyle stuff may well prefer the more complex sound of a non-torrefied top in a side by side comparison of otherwise identical guitars.

I like a big Neil Young strummy type of sound and I don't like the ones I've heard either - too dry and middy, like an old guitar that's gone past its best.

I'd also take a bet that it shortens the lifespan of the guitar as well, even if that isn't going to be a problem in the imminent future.

I don't like roasted maple necks either, the wood is soft - you can tell when you drill it - and feels and sounds 'insubstantial' to me.

Andy79 · July 2019

We clearly haven’t seen them in use long term but I cannot see a downside. Certainly don’t buy the argument that they’re lifespan will be shorter. Any guitar can be ruined if it’s not looked after

MichaelWatts · July 2019

The only downside that I've encountered has been tonal, in some cases I've found the sound a bit metallic and shrill, especially with really glassy back and side woods like cocobolo.

ToneControl · July 2019

Great idea for the short to mid-term
I would be worried about the way they inevitably change over the long term - could be great or awful, who can say?

TimmyO · July 2019

I think it's odd to think that it'll make for a downside as they age. Vintage guitar tops don't continue to dry until they disappear in a dessicated wisp of dust like a victim from The Mummy. Surely Torrefaction gets it to that "as dried out as it's going to get" stage from day 1,

ICBM · July 2019

TimmyO said:

I think it's odd to think that it'll make for a downside as they age. Vintage guitar tops don't continue to dry until they disappear in a dessicated wisp of dust like a victim from The Mummy. Surely Torrefaction gets it to that "as dried out as it's going to get" stage from day 1,

Torrefaction isn’t just drying, it also heats the wood and will cause some oxidation and breakdown, even if fairly slight.

Old guitars can get to a point where they stop sounding as good, and they can also become quite fragile. If you’re artificially reaching that point when the guitar is new, it will shorten the overall life of the guitar.

I admit this is just a guess because it’s too soon to tell, but I’m not at all convinced that it’s a good idea.

I’ll also admit I’ve only played a couple of guitars with them, but I didn’t like either of them exactly because they sounded too dry and thin.

Andy79 · July 2019

Pre war guitars are not going to vanish in a puff of dust anytime soon. Torrified wood is well understood, it’s a great way to get an open woody aged tone. If you’re unsure go try a pair of J45s for comparison. The difference is incredible.
The ibanez range is pretty poor but that’s more likely down to over building, not the baked tops

ICBM · July 2019

Andy79 said:

Pre war guitars are not going to vanish in a puff of dust anytime soon. Torrified wood is well understood, it’s a great way to get an open woody aged tone. If you’re unsure go try a pair of J45s for comparison. The difference is incredible.

One of the ones I've tried was a J45. Didn't like it at all. Although the same could be said for a fair number of standard J45s... but the good ones are very good.

The other was a Collings, but it's also fair to say I've never liked any Collings I've ever played. (Sorry Cam!

And I do like your J45

.)

TimmyO · July 2019

ICBM said:

I admit this is just a guess

quite

earwighoney · July 2019

Some interesting perspectives in the thread.

I came across a few videos of a Martin OM-18A, one with a VTS (torrefied top) and one without. The videos come from the same YT channel, have the same player, same room, same microphones but of course things like string choice, how old the strings are, microphone placement are all things that make a difference but I think it's fairly clear to hear there is a difference between both instruments.

VTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fHhXHFo-B0

Non VTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjs2QlQvy9o

FWIW, I personally think both guitars sound different - the VTS is dryer than the non VTS version. If I had a chance to record with them, I think they would suit different uses

ICBM · July 2019

TimmyO said:

ICBM said:

I admit this is just a guess

quite

Yes - because no-one knows what a torrefied-wood guitar will be like in 50 years yet - but based on the sound and fragility of most very old guitars I've played and worked on.

It's a shame the playing and possibly the recording in those Martin demos is so different, but I certainly do think the two guitars sound different. For me, I'd take the non-VTS one.

Roland · July 2019

Doesn’t torrefying changed the cell structure in a way that straight forward ageing doesn’t?

ToneControl · July 2019

earwighoney said:

Some interesting perspectives in the thread.

I came across a few videos of a Martin OM-18A, one with a VTS (torrefied top) and one without. The videos come from the same YT channel, have the same player, same room, same microphones but of course things like string choice, how old the strings are, microphone placement are all things that make a difference but I think it's fairly clear to hear there is a difference between both instruments.

VTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fHhXHFo-B0

Non VTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tjs2QlQvy9o

FWIW, I personally think both guitars sound different - the VTS is dryer than the non VTS version. If I had a chance to record with them, I think they would suit different uses

I think the mic is pointed at the soundhole for the second one

ToneControl · July 2019

ICBM said:

TimmyO said:

ICBM said:

I admit this is just a guess

quite

Yes - because no-one knows what a torrefied-wood guitar will be like in 50 years yet - but based on the sound and fragility of most very old guitars I've played and worked on.

It's a shame the playing and possibly the recording in those Martin demos is so different, but I certainly do think the two guitars sound different. For me, I'd take the non-VTS one.

I'm wary of getting one.
I'm going for conventional tops still, and sinker redwood

ToneControl · July 2019

Roland said:

Doesn’t torrefying changed the cell structure in a way that straight forward ageing doesn’t?

It's bound to be different, the processes are so different. I don't have specific info on it though. I'd assume that there is some correlation, but not the same result

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

Is there any downside to Torrefied Tops?

Comments