Chords/Roman Numerals/Nashville/Modes Pt2

dean111music · February 2019

I have already brought this up on another thread but wanted to use a simpler progression.

I'm wanting to know if the correct method for the nashville number system to always think of the major key being I chord, despite if its a modal track etc.

Eg

Em G D A - Im - bIII - bVII - IV OR IIm - IV - I - V

Cmaj7 /// Gmaj7 /// Cmaj7 /// Am7 / Gmaj7 / I V I VI V OR IV - I - IV - II V

My personal though on this would to look and relate everything to the major key

Em G D A is in the key of Em starts on the IIm so I'm in E Dorian

Cmaj7 Gmaj7 Cmaj7 Am7 Gmaj7 starts on the IV and sound like Cmaj7 and is a lydian progression although by not having the D major present doesn't warrant hanging on that sharp 4!

Just wanted to know your thoughts?

viz · February 2019

The first one’s spot on.

The second one - edit - just read your post properly. The G7 is a G maj7, so also spot on.

But like much of this stuff you could also just describe the second one as though it’s in C, and just note that the G chord has a maj7 whenever it occurs (Vmaj7).

I personally prefer the home note being the I chord. The Nashville system is ultra-confusing, counter-productive and unnecessary, I hate it!

dean111music · February 2019

thanks @viz How would you think about it in a modal context? As in choosing what mode you need to play? I suppose thats the advantage of the Nashville System its easier to see what mode you are in? or the very least play the major scale that belongs to the key centre then use your ear to hang on certain notes through a chord progression

viz · February 2019

Well I just wouldn’t work like that. I wouldn’t shift my frame of reference, I’d alter the notes in a fixed frame.

The 1 chord just IS the tonic in my book, whether major, minor or modal. And the V is the dominant. I can’t think in any other way - the position and role of the chord is just what the roman numerals MEAN.

So if I want to play in D Dorian, my chords are i ii bIII IV V (I’ve chosen to majorise the dominant chord in this example), bvi(dim), bVII, i.

Blaendulais · March 2019

Em G D A is in the key of Em starts on the IIm so I'm in E Dorian

Don't you mean is in the key of D and starts on Em so playing E dorian?

stratman3142 · March 2019

viz said:

...I personally prefer the home note being the I chord...

I completely agree. It seems illogical and against how things are heard to shift the frame of reference from the home note.

stratman3142 · March 2019

One thing that I struggle with is how to notate things in keys that are not strictly major Ionian or minor Aeolian.

For example, take D Dorian. I'm torn between notating it with no sharps or flats and then writing Dorian against the key signature. Or notating it with a key signature with one flat to indicate a D minor tonality, then including accidentals to covert the Bb to a B natural.

If anyone were to call the key for 'I Wish', I'm sure they'd call it in terms of the key for its home note minor key, even though it's essentially Dorian.

Blaendulais · March 2019

Convention says key signatures arent written for clearly modal music but accidentals used. However i understand what you say when it comes to chord progressions

viz · March 2019

Well, both options are possible. Check Debussy’s Sunken Cathedral for example.

But like you say, accidentals is probably better (after determining major or minor of course - not suggesting A minor should have 3 sharps in the key sig!)) - it makes one notice the mode.

It also reinforces that there are 3 major modes and 3 minor modes.

viz · March 2019

stratman3142 said:

If anyone were to call the key for 'I Wish', I'm sure they'd call it in terms of the key for its home note minor key, even though it's essentially Dorian.

They would, and to go one further, I don’t think we even need to make the distinction between home note minor key and it being Dorian, which is a minor mode (i know you know that!); so I’d say that its home note IS D#, and it’s in D# Dorian. And I’d personally mark it 6 sharps in the key sig and add the sharp for B# as an accidental wherever it occurs. (Or mark the key sig as Eb and naturalise the C if you prefer)

(Rather than saying it’s in Bb minor and confuse the hell out of everyone!)

fishfingers · March 2019

Having attempted quite a bit of transcribing of solo fingerstyle music recently, this thread seems very pertinent (at least, from my novice perspective!)

When notating modal music, is the best approach to use a key signature which reflects the parent scale? A signature without sharps or flats would therefore be appropriate for pieces in F lydian, G mixolydian, E phrygian etc?

viz · March 2019

There are 2 schools of thought.

I subscribe to the ‘no’ school. I prefer to key-sig it to the parent major or minor, and add modal colour through accidentals.

C Major: 0 sharps or flats.
D Dorian: 1 flat (Bb), and naturalise it as an accidental.
E Phrygian: 1 sharp (F#), and naturalise it as an accidental.
F Lydian: 1 flat (Bb), and naturalise it as an accidental.
G Mixo: 1 sharp (F#), and naturalise it as an accidental.
A Aeolian: 0 sharps or flats.
B Locrian: chances are this is really in C major or G Mixolydian, but if not, I’d signature it as though it were B minor (2 sharps), and naturalise them both as accidentals.

And if C were the key-note, it’d be:

C Major: 0 sharps or flats.
C Dorian: 3 flats, and naturalise the Ab.
C Phrygian: 3 flats, and flatten the D to Db.
C Lydian: 0 sharps or flats, and sharpen the F to F#.
C Mixo: 0 sharps or flats, and flatten the B to Bb.
C Aeolian: 3 flats.
C Locrian: 3 flats, and also flatten the D to Db and the G to Gb.

The other way is perfectly possible too but look how counter-intuitive it is:

C Major: 0 sharps or flats, like A minor.
C Dorian: 2 flats, like Bb major or G minor.
C Phrygian: 4 flats, like Ab major or F minor.
C Lydian: 1 sharp, like G major or E minor.
C Mixo: 1 flat, like F major or D minor.
C Aeolian: 3 flats, like Eb major.
C Locrian: 5 flats, like Db major or Bb minor.

stratman3142 · March 2019

I agree with @viz . But I can see the argument for the other way to reduce the number of accidentals.

For charts I generate, I like to write the mode against the key if it's not a straight major (Ionian) or its relative minor.

fishfingers · March 2019

viz said:

There are 2 schools of thought.

I subscribe to the ‘no’ school. I prefer to key-sig it to the parent major or minor, and add modal colour through accidentals.

C Major: 0 sharps or flats.

D Dorian: 1 flat (Bb), and naturalise it as an accidental.

E Phrygian: 1 sharp (F#), and naturalise it as an accidental.

F Lydian: 1 flat (Bb), and naturalise it as an accidental.

G mixolydian: 1 sharp (F#), and naturalise it as an accidental.

A Aeolian: 0 sharps or flats.

B Locrian: chances are this is really in G Mixolydian, but if not, I’d signature it as though it were B minor (2 sharps), and naturalise them both as accidentals.

But the other way is perfectly possible too.

Thanks. So, taking a "Major/Minor" approach means that the minor modes are dealt with as though they were all Aeolian and receive the key signature of the relative major of the tonic, while the major modes get the major key signature of the tonic note; and accidentals within the music are used to represent the notes that characterise the specific mode of the piece?

viz · March 2019

fishfingers said:

Thanks. So, taking a "Major/Minor" approach means that the minor modes are dealt with as though they were all Aeolian and receive the key signature of the relative major of the tonic, while the major modes get the major key signature of the tonic note; and accidentals within the music are used to represent the notes that characterise the specific mode of the piece?

Precisely.

stratman3142 · March 2019

The Phrygian mode (which is essentially minor) is a tricky one because in real world examples (in my experience) it seems to be intimately associated with the Phrygian dominant (which has a major 3rd). When I want that flamenco or Spanish sound, I'm often mixing the two, sometimes playing a b3 and sometimes playing a natural 3 (which would be G or G# in the key of E).

So would a flamenco/Spanish sounding piece in E, be notated as essentially E major (Phrygian dominant) or essentially E minor (Phrygian)?

There's an interesting parallel with the harmonic minor scale and the natural minor, where the 'Phrygians' respectively could be regarded as the 5th mode of those scales. And often when I'm composing or improvising (e.g. Smooth by Santana) I'll use both the b7 or the natural 7. So in the key of Am we come back to the use of G and G# as mentioned earlier in the context of the relative 'Phrygians'.

viz · March 2019

stratman3142 said:

The Phrygian mode (which is essentially minor) is a tricky one because in real world examples (in my experience) it seems to be intimately associated with the Phrygian dominant (which has a major 3rd). When I want that flamenco or Spanish sound, I'm often mixing the two, sometimes playing a b3 and sometimes playing a natural 3 (which would be G or G# in the key of E).

So would a flamenco/Spanish sounding piece in E, be notated as essentially E major (Phrygian dominant) or essentially E minor (Phrygian)?

There's an interesting parallel with the harmonic minor scale and the natural minor, where the 'Phrygians' respectively could be regarded as the 5th mode of those scales. And often when I'm composing or improvising (e.g. Smooth by Santana) I'll use both the b7 or the natural 7. So in the key of Am we come back to the use of G and G# as mentioned earlier in the context of the relative 'Phrygians'.

Interesting. I like your thinking. Here’s my view:

Note Relative effect on minor tonality

3rd 50%
6th 25%
7th 15%
2nd 10%

So on the basis of those made-up numbers:

Phrygian: 100% minor
Aeolian: 90% minor
Dorian: only 60% minor
even Mixolydian: 15% minor

Phrygian dominant (on the tonic) scores 50%, so on the fence.

Mixolydian b6 (on the tonic) swings to 60% MAJOR, which sounds right to me. Rachmaninov wrote a lot of music in Mixo b6 and it has a major feel (just).

Harmonic and melodic minor (when used on the tonic) score 75% and 50% minor respectively.

Then we have other hybrids: harmonic major scores 25% minor; neapolitan major scores 60% minor (even though it’s called major this feels right to me); the beautifully palindromic snake-charmer scale (1312131) scores 35% minor.

————————

As for the Phryg Dom and Mixo b6 in their typical V positions (in classical music) they’re as per Aeolian, because they only exist fleetingly to cadence to the minor tonic. Maybe they score half points for their raised notes, so instead of 90% minor they get 83.5% and 78.5% respectively.

Viz: successfully squashing art with pseudo-science since 1990.

viz · March 2019

Been thinking about this all day lol. Here are the relative weightings, from the perspective of the impact they have on major tonality, IMO of course!

Note Relative effect on major tonality

2nd:                 10%
3rd:                  50%
6th:                  25%
7th:                  15%

And here are the 16 scales, from most major to most minor:

MMMM: Ionian. 100% major

mMMM: Ionian b2: 90% major

MMMm: Mixolydian: 85% major

MMmM: Harmonic major: 75% major

mMMm: Mixolydian b2: 75% major

mMmM: Snake Charmer: 65% major

MMmm: Mixolydian b6: 60% major

MmMM: Melodic minor ascending: 50% major

mMmm: Phyrgian Dominant: 50%

mmMM: Neapolitan major: 40% major

MmMm: Dorian: 35% major

MmmM: Harmonic minor: 25% major

mmMm: Dorian b2: 25% major

mmmM: Neapolitan minor: 15% major

Mmmm: Aeolian: 10% major

mmmm: Phrygian: 0% major

(Of course, Lydian with its aug4 scores 110%, and Lydian Augmented with its aug4 and aug 5 gets 120%. Similarly, Locrian gets -10% and Super Locrian gets -20% )

Modellista · March 2019

^ that is awesome.

viz · March 2019

Modellista said:

^ that is awesome.

If somewhat off-topic, but thanks!

dean111music · November 2020

Old thread! But found this about Nashville number system

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/30240-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-nashville-number-system

It does seem that if you are in a minor or major key modal or not the I is always the I of the related major key. Which kinda makes sense as you will always be thinking about the key and the mode. Rather than saying we are Em Dorian, It’s easier to say D Major.
First chord Em which we call chord II which is the home sound.

viz · November 2020

dean111music said:

Old thread! But found this about Nashville number system

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/30240-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-nashville-number-system

It does seem that if you are in a minor or major key modal or not the I is always the I of the related major key. Which kinda makes sense as you will always be thinking about the key and the mode. Rather than saying we are Em Dorian, It’s easier to say D Major.
First chord Em which we call chord II which is the home sound.

Which makes no sense to me, as you have to relate the home key to another chord entirely, then unrelate it back again to get to your home key.

dean111music · December 2020

viz said:

dean111music said:

Old thread! But found this about Nashville number system

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/30240-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-nashville-number-system

It does seem that if you are in a minor or major key modal or not the I is always the I of the related major key. Which kinda makes sense as you will always be thinking about the key and the mode. Rather than saying we are Em Dorian, It’s easier to say D Major.
First chord Em which we call chord II which is the home sound.

Which makes no sense to me, as you have to relate the home key to another chord entirely, then unrelate it back again to get to your home key.

It’s an interesting one. This vid makes a great point towards the end, Nashville v Roman Numeral system. Nashville System is easier to understand as I IV V are always major ii iii vi are always minor. Anything outside is b or #

https://youtu.be/VeIQTAE8YU0

viz · December 2020

Or you could say Roman is easier to understand because the 1 is always the 1.

Edit - Sorry, I actually wrote that by mistake! It’s so ingrained in me. I meant to say because the home note is always the 1.

After a few months learning music the fact that a minor key has a minor 2, 4 and 5 isn’t so difficult. But knowing which key you’re in, well that’s fundamentally important for ever. And it also works for keys that are not really in major or minor (eg smoke on the water).

Anyway, it’s up to folk I guess. It doesn’t matter if some people want to say Black Magic Woman has 623 instead of a minor 145, or that minor jazz pieces are full of 736s instead of minor 251s.

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Chords/Roman Numerals/Nashville/Modes Pt2

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