help me to start learning to improvise.

racefaceec90 · April 2014

have no doubt put up a similar thread either here or musicradar in the past.

my overriding problem (apart from my guitar playing) is that i just CANNOT understand music theory at all.i know i sound like a complete dunce and you'd be right,but whenever i have tried to read up on anything theory,my mind just switches off.have tried to start learning the stuff but my mind just won't take any of it in (am not embellishing either).the same with scales too.

is there any tips you can give about improvising that isn't just about theory?

sweepy · April 2014

A good place to start is the root third and fifth of the chords in the song , getting them under you fingers and getting used to the octave shapes and stop playing boxes and play a scale along the whole string

viz · April 2014

Just get a couple of guitar lessons with someone who knows the stuff and can explain it well.

RedRabbit · April 2014

A teacher will undoubtedly be the best way to get started as they'll be able to structure the lessons around what you want to achieve and how you are progressing.

That said a lot of guitarists will start out with learning the minor pentatonic scale. Learn the shapes (or even just the first position to begin with) and play around with them over some backing tracks. Youtube is your friend here.

You might find that you end up just running up and down parts of the scale and that's fine to begin with as you'll be getting used to the shapes and getting your ears used to the sound but sooner or later you'll want to learn some licks. You can learn licks in isolation or you can learn some solos that you like and steal from them. Very few people truly improvise but instead we mainly rely on stock licks that they'll use to fit the song and what they want to express.

A couple of Justin Sandercoe's videos to help get you started if this is the path you want to take.

close2u · April 2014

A BIG BIG plus 1 for Justin's lesson's using the minor pentatonic.

I'm going to link to a clearly structured series of lessons that will give you immediate practical learning and instant results for improvising.
It worked for me and I can not recommend it highly enough.

Start here for the basics & intro
:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-011-BluesBasics.php

Then continue through the BL- series of lessons.
If you know the pentatonic shapes / patterns, you can skip to the parts that are going to be the most useful re: your question, and those parts are where Justin teaches 5 licks for each position, and, crucially, how to use them to start improvising.
I will point those out in the series of links below.

The scales you need:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-012-BluesScales.php

5 licks to learn (it is mis-named on the site as Bends, it is about licks):
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-013-BluesBends.php

The art of bending:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-014-BluesBends.php

How to use licks:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-015-BluesUseLicks.php

Keep going - the next scale pattern:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-016-MinPentPos2.php

5 licks for pattern 2:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-017-BluesLicks2.php

Linking patterns 1 & 2 to improvise:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-018-LinkingPos1Pos2.php

Introducing the 'blue note':
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-019-BluesScale.php

How to play over an intro / ending:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-020-IntroEnding.php

Scale pattern 3:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-021-MinPentBluesPos3.php

5 licks for pattern 3:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-022-Pos3Licks.php

Scale pattern 4:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-023-MinPentBluesPos4.php

5 licks for pattern 4:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-024-Pos4Licks.php

Scale pattern 5:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-025-MinPentBluesPos5.php

5 licks for pattern 5:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-026-Pos5Licks.php

Linking all patterns:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-027-LinkingPositions.php

Adding some extra notes:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-028-DorianApproch.php

Some more licks:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-029-DorianLicks.php

Summary:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-030-PuttingItTogether.php

Further learning:
http://justinguitar.com/en/BL-102-ScaleChoicesInBlues.php

DulcetJones · April 2014

The scale patterns Justin starts with are where I started, all of a sudden, without knowing all the theory hows and whys I could improvise simple riffs that didn't make me cringe. I would start at the top of the list close2u posted and work your way through gradually, you do still have to memorize these patterns but it's not that hard and a lot of players have gotten a lot of mileage out of them. It's a worthwhile journey.

Grunfeld · April 2014

racefaceec90 said:

my overriding problem (apart from my guitar playing)...

How frequently do you practice?

How long do you practice for?

Have you ever wondered if this "guitar playing" is the main problem?

The ability to play has to come first. Are you able to already play the sort of guitar playing you want to improvise and "be like"?

The other thing, and it might sound odd, but why do you want to improvise? Just curious. Because if your ultimate answer is, "As it happens I don't really want to improvise," then that would go some way to explaining why you've not made progress with it. For what it's worth I don't improvise much; I can, but it's not something I particularly want to do. So I focus on my playing.

racefaceec90 · April 2014

thanks for the replies :-)

what i really want to be able to do is make my own stuff up (find my own voice on the guitar).have spent nearly all of my time trying to learn other people's tracks (and they do it a lot better than i do ;-)

i don't practise either (just mess about on the guitar/no structure to it).tbh my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).

i have no interest in joining a band e.t.c (as my anxiety puts paid to that/bad guitar ability too). i just feel that i have been banging my head against a brick wall for the past 20 odd years with trying to learn the instrument.

will definitely look at the links and try to practise them.

Grunfeld · April 2014

racefaceec90 said:

i don't practise either....

I thought so. Start by fixing this. It is essential; it's non-negotiable.

Practice. Every day.

Everything will improve after that. Absolutely guaranteed. You could make more progress in one year like this than in the twenty years of structureless non-practice you've already not-practiced. You would be astonished at the level of player you could become compared to where you are now.

And then improvisation will be possible if that's what you choose do do. Because you won't be able to improvise until you can play.

racefaceec90 · April 2014

the next problem i need to work out is to create my own personal practise routine.that's going to be the tricky part to work out as i'm pretty awful at everything tbh.

i think i may well have to save for a couple of guitar lessons,so a teacher can start me off on the right path as to what to practise.

will also actually start watching those justin video's (i have known about his lessons/subscribed a few years ago to his channel)but just never bothered to actually watch/practise anything from his channel.

well i want to finally do something about that.

Grunfeld · April 2014

racefaceec90 said:

the next problem i need to work out is....

i think i may well have to save for....

will also actually start watching...

You are waiting for the perfect moment to start. You don't need to. You need 10-30 minutes a day. Today's a day. So is tomorrow. That's how to start.

All you really need is:

1) a tuner (cos an out of tune guitar will always sound awful).

2) something like a metronome, and / or a piece of software like Transcibe! -- I.e. something which can help you practice (whatever it is that you are playing) slowly and which you can gradually speed up. Playing it right is the most important thing. And to play it right you've first got to be able to play it slowly.

Now, fair enough, lessons usually help, (for technical and psychological reasons), and having an idea where you're going helps too. But that part is not actually that difficult. I don't know what music you like but if, say, you like "classic rock" then that's what you practice. Pick simple songs of the sort you like and learn how to play them. And if it's taking too long then lower the bar: I.e. don't start with Rush; start with "All Right Now" sort of thing. Common sense.

People sometimes go wrong, get distracted, by a feeling of "I've got to learn everything." No you really don't. You learn what you want to play. If you don't like Blues or Funk then you don't need to spend time practising Blues or Funk. It will still be there for you to learn when you've got good enough at whatever you're mainly into. Basically, you've got to start somewhere so you may as well practice what you enjoy. Cos then you'll enjoy it and keep practising.

close2u · April 2014

Wait, wait, wait !!!
Don't dive in to those links just yet.
In light of what you have just said, you need to prepare yourself first.

racefaceec90 said:

my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).

That was me too .. and then I discovered Justin's lessons.
I went from zero to hero in no time!! lol

Seriously, given what you say here, you MUST start here and work through, making sure you have all the basics in place.
http://justinguitar.com/en/BC-000-BeginnersCourse.php
As you have played a long time, albeit unstructured, you will get through quickly.
Then, you MUST continue and work through here:
http://justinguitar.com/en/IM-000-IntermediateMethod.php

These additional parts will help you :
Technique work:
http://justinguitar.com/en/TE-000-Technique.php

Two suggested practice routines:
http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-501-BeginnersPractice.php

http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-502-IntermediatePractice.php

Both from this sections:
http://justinguitar.com/en/PC-000-Practice.php

racefaceec90 · April 2014

Grunfeld said:
don't start with Rush

oops ;-)

that's mostly what i have learned covers of.

i do love classic rock and especially love alex lifeson/dave gilmour and steve rothery's playing most of all. would love to be able to do dreamy textural soundtrack type guitar playing.that's one of my big aims with my guitar playing tbh.

the last guitar tutor i went to a few years ago was a bit of an arrogant sod tbh.when i tried to show him what i was practising (metallica's sanitarium) he said "oh that's easy to play!" i also wasn't offered a coffee when his wife asked if he wanted one (considering the lesson was £25). he also forgot that he had a lesson with me previously (cycled 3 miles to his house/with my guitar).

anyhoo i may well stick mostly to online lessons as they are free

Sambostar · April 2014

I would spend less time learning guitar, as thinking tunes and lead lines and patterns or progressions in your head, that way you might not become chained to a few positions or scales for the most part of eternity and be thinking more about the note choice than what is comfortable or feels familiar. Although I'd learn a few riffs and that too though.

littlegreenman · April 2014

racefaceec90 said:

would love to be able to do dreamy textural soundtrack type guitar playing.that's one of my big aims with my guitar playing tbh.

Once you begin to get your head around Sonar (as per your other thread), layering simple lines over each other will be a good place to start.

And should help with the theory side of things. You'll quickly hear what works and what doesn't for you, theory is just a way of describing that, either to yourself or other people.

SimonC · April 2014

Investing in a simple looper (TC Ditto for eg) is a good way to start experimenting with this kind of thing "on the fly" as well.

Fusionista · April 2014

racefaceec90 said:

i don't practise either (just mess about on the guitar/no structure to it).tbh my guitar skill is very low considering i have been trying to learn guitar for over 20 years (on and off).

i have no interest in joining a band e.t.c (as my anxiety puts paid to that/bad guitar ability too). i just feel that i have been banging my head against a brick wall for the past 20 odd years with trying to learn the instrument.

Some very good advice here.

You are in a very good place to start as well. Frustration = Motivation. When I was in a similar place, I learned the major scale in all 5 (only) positions starting from C. Lo and behold you learn all the (6) modal patterns as well, because they are the same, just start on different notes. So second position starting from C is Dorian - magic! 5th position is minor - how easy is that ? Then I just experimented with which pattern suited over any song, and hey presto, I got the key centre as well. The first song I remember cracking was Black Magic Woman (Santana: D Dorian) and I was off and away.

Also try this guitarteacher.com/2010/03/01/modal-jam-tracks-a-dorian-mode/

frankus · April 2014

I am deeply enjoying @Grunfeld 's posts - I've reread them at least three times so far because they are so packed with the truth they bear a fair bit of rereading.

Also: Getting a looper and realising frustration IS NOT an invitation to feel bad, but an invitation to do stuff...

that stuff is great advice.

Improvisation is not composition. AND whatever anyone else says Theory has VERY VERY LITTLE impact on Improvisation. I'd argue it has very little to do with real composition either - it's just handing you a list of safe notes... whereas the reality is rhythm dictates where to play the safe notes, for all other occassions there's the "unsafe"/interesting notes.

If you want to get improvisation identify the parts of other people's music that you love and steal them. Where people bang on endlessly about modes and scales - they needn't - most of what you love about music is the rhythm, here, watch this!

... and of what's left most is the timbre of the tiny parts left after that there's technique and after that it's notes (of which there are several octaves on a guitar - two accessible per scale pattern AND ... Miles Davis (one of the most famous improvisors - deservedly, of all time) had a two octave range on his trumpet - so unlocking the entire neck isn't necessary to have all the notes available to Davis... it's a nice to have and a goal for the distance.

Some books I'd recommend are Victor Wooten's the music lesson (it's about the context of music), Daniel Levitin's This is your brain on music (again about the purpose and context of music) and Philip Toshio Sudo's Zen Guitar (it's about why we're doing it)

Figure out the why and the how comes naturally. To improvise you've got to make lots of mistakes (as Einstein says: anyone who's never made a mistake has never done anything of worth) so get used to making them AND more importantly learning from them and recoverring from them.

Justin Sandercoe is a really great guy, his lessons are full of insight and his understanding of the guitar and music - he explains things using modes and scales but is not beholden to them in his own compositions and back in 2005 when I fancied being a shredder and uber-theorist (three cycle of fifths to define modes of major, minor and jazz minor with interstials to show the relationships, anyone?) it was Justin who brought me down to earth - it's rhythm and knowing what notes you think sound good on the strong beats of the bar... that is all there is to it... nothing more.

(to be fair, it was me who told him to use youtube to viral market the site..

)

underdog · April 2014

Big thumbs up for the Justin lessons linked on the pentatonic, someone suggested them to me on here a few months back. I've been playing 20 years, know nothing about theory and could just play songs

After running through that course of lessons I find I can now do some improv over backing tracks but what I found much cooler was when learning songs I knew what scale was being used and could often pickup the rest of the solo without tab because I had a choice of notes to start with.

knuckleberryfinn · April 2014

frankus said:

Where people bang on endlessly about modes and scales - they needn't - most of what you love about music is the rhythm.

This is completely the truth. I think a good way of starting to improvise (after you've followed the advice above) is to play along with the music you love, but at first restrict yourself to two notes - or even only one. Having so few notes to work with gets you to focus more on the rhythm. Most of the self-taught intermediate students who start lessons with me play far too many notes with no breaks between them when they are improvising - it's like they think they're going to fall off if they stop.

SNAKEBITE · April 2014

Wow, someone who is in the same boat as me!

As a 43 year old who has been toying with the guitar for about 8/10 years I was getting frustrated.

I finally bit the bullet and started lessons with the intention of taking my grades.

The first thing I was taught was the Major scale and the modes of this scale. Bear with me on this as I know you say you struggled with scales.

Now I do not know off by heart all the notes in all the positions but I am working towards it, a good start is to know all the root notes.

Anyways, I bought myself a Digitech Jam master loop pedal, played a riff with the chords G, C & D and improvised over it. Using the G major scale I was able to make a reasonable noise which boosted my confidence no end. Then I started to venture out into the other modes and it still sounded good.

As mentioned above start slowly, use rhythm and just enjoy it!

The more time you spend playing the better you'll get.

nickp · April 2014

at the risk of coming in late to the discussion. similar to many old bloke, not played for a long time, didn't practice. I know there is shedloads that I don't know.

1. lessons with a very good teacher - the average teachers are as confused as me about what I can and can't do

2. @grunfeld is the man. practice technique every day - my playing has improved massively over 6 months and I am starting to play some stuff I hear in my head because my fingers know what it is. not songs but scales, picking, arpeggios and chords. they become muscle memory and the brain clicks in too. Songs I play in the evening for "fun" and for the band etc - using a jamming program which can slow down and loop bits of songs

3. the metronome is your friend - nearly all my technique practice is now done to a metronome. my "real life - band" timing has become soo much better

4. learning to improvise - ultimately means learning scales and arpeggios to give you vocabulary - so back to daily practice so they live in your fingers. As well as that the actual beginning of learning to "improvise" the advice is to play the chord progression lots because the difference between sounding good and just widdling is knowing where you are in the progression and outlining the underlying chords.

5. after playing the rhythm part a lot, then do what @grunfeld and other say and move to playing just the root of each chord and go from there.

6. learn some stock phrases in the musical idiom you like coz most guitarists take these musical ideas and make them their own. along the lines of clapton nicked from his predecessors as did stevie ray vaughan and everyone else

that is the approach that I understand works for mere mortals. those who have music running through their soul and pouring out of their fingers can abandon steps 2-6 and just work on enough technique to channel. That isn't me.

xSkarloey · May 2014

My son is in the same boat as he's learning the saxophone.

I just tell him to not be afraid to play., even if the earlier results are bad or indifferent.

You've got to get all the bad out before you get the good.

frankus · May 2014

it's learning to make the bad good

Fusionista · May 2014

I tell my kids "If you do the work, the body learns by itself - it's automatic." I say it because I wish somebody had said it to me when I was young. How many times have I thought when I first started to learn a lick (or even that first F barre chord) "I'll never get this." Not true: the next day, or the day after, if you practice, it comes. The fine muscle movement that is required can only be handled by the subconscious mind.

Elx · May 2014

The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say... Now, I would be really interested to know how many people can really do it. It's very difficult and for this you need to have a special talent. For the most part, it's hard work, a lot of hard work. I don't hear anything in my head when I improvise, I just go with the shapes and I throw my fingers around the neck where I know it will work. But then again, that's why I haven't made a career

But I am happy being able to entertain myself, and I don't mind being a bedroom player, as long as I am happy with what I can do n the guitar and entertain myself and a couple of family members

Steve Vai once said, it's all about how good you can be when playing live, I've heard great players who fall apart when they're on stage. I would be one of those. In my bedroom I play extremely good I would say, last night for example I played along to an entire Vinnie Moore's Time Odyssey album, but if I was to play it live, at high volume, I think I would collapse.

Sorry for hijacking the thread

Anyway, keep discovering and entertaining yourself, that's what it's all about...

Fusionista · May 2014

Elx said: The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say...

As usual, there's a trick to it. You don't have to know everything you are going to play beforehand. It's more like reacting to what you have just played and are in the process of playing - and how it sounds in relation to the song and what the rest of the band is playing - in the moment and note to note. In other words, it's knowing what you are going to play just a fraction of a second before you play it, and going from there all over again. Course you gotta have the chops

I learned this by experience, but I recall getting a hint from an old Larry Carlton instructional DVD where it is not explicitly stated or explained but in hindsight you get what he is implying. If you want an example, check out my solo on the Purple Rain clip here https://www.facebook.com/pages/5Aside-Band/603362123087697 (from 1:00). I didn't know what I was going to play at all, and indeed couldn't remember what I had played, except a kind member of the audience recorded it for posterity!

frankus · May 2014

Elx;233623" said:
The idea of improvising is being able to hear it first in your head before you can play it, or at least that's what the pros say... Now, I would be really interested to know how many people can really do it.

play slowly to begin with!

It's very difficult and for this you need to have a special talent.

no it's not and no you don't! Just keep time and the rest just happen

For the most part, it's hard work, a lot of hard work.

yes, yes it is - but it's fun so it doesn't seem like hard work

I don't hear anything in my head when I improvise,

then you're not improvising. First step - rhythm... hear a rhythm or sing it da-dad-adadadad -adada... then play that... next you know the direction the notes lie in... up or down ... so even if you play the wrong note it's still recogniseable

A trick to playing melodic lines is to focus on your breathing ... stop every time you inhale... you'll get lines like a saxophonist.

I just go with the shapes and I throw my fingers around the neck where I know it will work.

that's painting by numbers. Imagine talking to someone who replied using the right sounding words.

"Firstly let me see I hear what you're saying 110% it's the normality of it's entirety that differentiates the interface of the beginning ... from the end while the middle is heretofore not to be confused with the thing that it is easy to confuse that thing with in it's least complex form as Huegens indicated in 1928 using the paradox isolation principle of soma"

First off if there's 7 notes that are "right" there's a pentatonic scale that's "wrong" -- Victor Wooten is a great one for killing that myth, playing a solo of the wrong notes and tearing it up - there are no wrong notes just an inability for some to know how to use them.

I'd love to show the youtube footage for that solo - it kills all this debate about which Scale Grimoire to buy stone dead!

But then again, that's why I haven't made a career But I am happy being able to entertain myself,

Wouldn't more risk be more entertaining? Or is the entertainment derived from predicting what will happen and havign that confirmed? Like showing prowess? I think both are useful.

and I don't mind being a bedroom player, as long as I am happy with what I can do n the guitar and entertain myself and a couple of family members

Seems fair enough.

Steve Vai once said, it's all about how good you can be when playing live, I've heard great players who fall apart when they're on stage.

I seem to recall the theory being you can expect the top 10% of your playing skills to desert you, even when you're used to playing on stage.

The trick to playing on stage is smiling, connecting with the audience and relaxing... but you'll still lose the top 10%

so accept it

Improvising is not about learning... that means when you come to improvise you know the licks you're going to fuse (the results may be a little surprise but not too great) unlike when learning there's no space for "will this work?" it's going to sound fantastic even if it's crazy... hammer it a few times, grin and move on if it won't fit in.

@Fusionista - do you remember at IGF where Dario got one of the younger shredders who'd taken the jazz course to learn how to "shred outside" and made him slow the hell down... it kinda went like this:

"Wow that was amazing it was like... I wasn't playing patterns... I figured out the sound I wanted and my fingers found it ... sometimes right away!!"
"Ya, that's what we call improvising!"

Fusionista · May 2014

Can't say I do remember! But then I can't even remember my own solos these days

frankus · May 2014

Spanish dude with glasses and a green RG iirc... maybe a Jem... great shredder and in a sickeningly short time a great improviser

Elx · May 2014

@Frankus, fair points, thanks for your input...

I might have sounded like I'm clueless when I'm improvising, but I'm not really. Let's just say that I play it safe and I try to stay in my comfort zone. The way that people like Joe Pass, Mike Stern, Gambale or Alan Holdsworth hear what they will play before they actually play it will always beyond me. But nobody can convince me that Ritchie Blackmore improvises like that, and that's something I aspire to

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