How's amp modelling these days?

Octahedron · April 2014

I've just picked up a copy of the February 2014 issue of Guitarist. We're a bit behind the times in Australia you see... Well we get the new ones but the old ones go down in price a lot when they find spare/loose copies of old issues that didn't get sold!

I'm someone who has to travel a bit of a way to gig and mostly on public transport, and I don't like carrying heaps of stuff around. That's why I'm interested in finding out how much modelling has moved forward in terms of realism since the early incarnations of AmpliTube etc came about.

I read with interest the review of the IK Multimedia iRig BlueBoard. It looks like a simple enough concept and it's pretty reasonably priced. I don't have AmpliTube or any interface to use AmpliTube as such.

Realistically, what's the bear minimum that you need to run a device like the iRig BlueBoard? How much is it going to set me back? And more importantly - is it gonna sound like shite?

I have an iPhone 5 and a MacBook Pro (both purchased late 2013) for the record so I'm pretty sure my devices have the required Bluetooth LE.

Octahedron · April 2014

Just a bit of additional info - I would be solely using it for gigging.

My current board is pretty simple for gigging, I would run either a Tele or a Les Paul Standard in to a Korg PitchBlack which then goes to a DigiTech Bad Monkey, then a DigiTech Hot Head, then out of that we go to a tc electronic Nova Repeater Delay, then from that we go on to a tc electronic Hall of Fame reverb and then to the amp (which, when gigging, is a Roland Cube 60 combo).

I wouldn't want to run it through my Jet City at home - other than for testing purposes. I'm going to get a hugely different result using that at home than the Roland Cube anyway. Same as with anything really!

The idea of my board is that the core sound comes from the Hot Head which gives a basic distorted tone, you can hear all the notes pretty clearly when playing chords and it's all set up to get a dynamic response from playing i.e. if you play harder it'll dirty up and be crunchy and good for power chords, and the Bad Monkey is there as a boost. The reverb is 'always on' to thicken up the sound and the delay is used to sort of really push that reverb sound and thicken everything out and make it sound really 'big' when playing lead lines.

Would something like what I have on my board of individual stomp boxes be kind of (even semi-) achievable using a iOS device and something like AmpliTube and the BlueBoard?

ecc83 · April 2014

PM me, not sure it worked my end.

Dave.

digitalscream · April 2014

Funnily enough, Amplitube Custom Shop does have official models of the Jet City JCA20H and JCA100H, and they're pretty good. I think you need to do a lot of work with the parametric EQ and getting the input levels right, though, because it does sound a lot thinner until you give it some welly in the mids (particularly the low mids).

Personally, I wouldn't trust modelling on a mobile device for gigging. They just introduce far too many variables into the situation, I guess.

That said, I've got some time booked at the rehearsal studio today to take my Eleven Rack, a power amp and my normal head/cab rig and do a compare/contrast to see if I can get it to make the right noises. Just need to finish modding the MIDI controller for an extra two control switches, and it's going to be more flexible in a live/rehearsal context.

dindude · April 2014

My take on modelling: if you think you're behind the times in Australia, then it's nothing compared to the mainstream modelling world.

So let me have a minor rant, all my own personal opinion of course........

First hardware solutions: at the low end, I.e. line 6, vox, roland, digitech, zoom et al - they've all but given up on the software development side, there has been no great strides in 6 or 7 years I'd say. In fact the "latest" from line 6 and digitech are the exact same sound engine from around 7 years ago. Of these companies, zoom have probably progressed the most, but they needed to as they were behind.

I think these companies have twigged that their market doesn't really give a crap about tone, just want some shiny box of tricks, and for this some of them can be fun.

Also don't get swept up in the yamaha THR's - they are cleverly packaged and good sounding units but a leap forwards? Er no.

Then there's a huge golf to Axe FX, with Eleven rack and kemper the only real options in the middle. I've only heard/played an axe fx very briefly so can't comment too much, but yes a different league, though still wouldn't replace a valve amp on fire, just doesn't sound like one, sorry. But that's not the point as it can do so much more than a valve amp and a few pedals could ever do if that's what you want.

Then there's the software solutions. I don't dabble in PC type stuff as, although this is where a lot of the more "pro" quality sims sit, I just hate the mouse / graphical interface combo for such things. So can't comment.

Onto the ipad / iPhone then - getting better, I use jam up on the ipad with an apogee jam now and again and it's good fun, the high gain sounds are better than any of the budget hardware guys I mentioned above, however I can't get many good clean and semi dirty tones out of it.

In summary, amp modelling for the most part can kiss my bum cheeks, I've always tried to like it, certainly like the idea of it, (not to replace my main amp etc but just for fun), but ultimately it is a toy-like unrewarding experience that I soon tire of.

Some of the companies above need to really move this game on.

To answer your original question, the blue board and iPhone etc is just too bedroom-toy-like to consider giggin IMO. There would be too many glitches etc. for example, whilst I like jam up, it's impossible to use with a drum machine because the latency, although small, is still there, and blooming annoying.

If I were you, and you're dead set on modelling, I would look (despite everything I've said above) at the "new" Line 6 FX100 floor unit. Ok so it sounds the same as a pod from the 17th century, but it will be stable and you can control it via your phone (via Bluetooth).

digitalscream · April 2014

dindude said:..

First hardware solutions: at the low end, I.e. line 6, vox, roland, digitech, zoom et al - they've all but given up on the software development side, there has been no great strides in 6 or 7 years I'd say. In fact the "latest" from line 6 and digitech are the exact same sound engine from around 7 years ago. Of these companies, zoom have probably progressed the most, but they needed to as they were behind.

This is what's slightly annoying - the Eleven Rack is a 7 year old device, but it still sounds better to me than just about anything out there (the Kemper beats it, but I still don't like anything I've heard from an AxeFX of any generation).

Even the Eleven plugin is better than any of the software sims out there (Amplitube et al). If they'd be sensible and put it out as a VST instead of Pro Tools-only RTAS, it'd be a big winner IMO.

monquixote · April 2014

I don't know what the sound quality is like, but I wouldn't touch an iPhone/iPad/PC based solution for live. It's going to glitch out, or reboot during a show and you're going to end up feeling really stressed out and not concentrating on playing.

None of the lower end modellers sound very good live IMO. I actually prefer solid state like AMT/Sansamp/Bogner if you want something to use live.

Octahedron · April 2014

Hmmmm.

As stated in my original post, it was an idea, purely from the point of view that it'd potentially save me carting around a load of gear.

FWIW the Roland Cube, in my opinion, is a horrible sounding amp anyway and only sounds vaguely alright when you stick something in front of it (pedals wise)!!

I don't own the Roland. My 'gig' is a Church band... we share the Cube among 3 guitarists (different person each week) and then we each put our own board/guitar in front of it.

It's all just a thought at the end of the day. A desire to see what gadgets out there are worth, it if any, after seeing interesting looking ones in some reviews such as this.

Thanks for your input one and all!

monquixote · April 2014

In which case I'd spend my cash on something like a Peavey Bandit which will be dirt cheap and probably sound fairly decent.

There is nothing you can put in front of a crappy amp that will make it sound good.

digitalscream · April 2014

Just for the record...I took my Eleven to the rehearsal studio today for a bit of exercise. Paired with an old MTR 200W rack power amp, it sounded like ass. Seriously, it was just mush at the low end and harsh at the top end, with nothing of note in the middle.

Then I tried it into the effects return of the Jet City - better, but not great. Then...I turned the Jet City up to full band volume.

This was a result I wasn't expecting - it sounded great. Not just good or acceptable, but a sound that really put a smile on my face. In fact, after some serious tweaking and back-and-forth between it and the Jet City's preamp, I got it to almost exactly replicate the sound of the Jet City's preamp, but without the background noise and with more low-mid punch.

Now I just need to figure out a way to do that without having to take an amp head and a rack unit. I suspect I may end up with a Marshall 20/20.

EricTheWeary · April 2014

The clean channel of a Bandit is a good platform for pedals. You won't push it into valvey overdrive but if you use an amp in a box type pedal it works well.

For a ( relatively affordable) hardware modelling solution I'm tempted by the Mustang Floor. There is lots it won't do well but what it does well (assuming it sounds the same as the combos)is pretty good. Presumably the Roland has a clean channel you could use as a slave for the better models in the Mustang and it has a decent range of effects.

Fretwired · April 2014

dindude said:

So let me have a minor rant, all my own personal opinion of course........

First hardware solutions: at the low end, I.e. line 6, vox, roland, digitech, zoom et al - they've all but given up on the software development side, there has been no great strides in 6 or 7 years I'd say. In fact the "latest" from line 6 and digitech are the exact same sound engine from around 7 years ago. Of these companies, zoom have probably progressed the most, but they needed to as they were behind.

I'm sorry but that's just not right. The Line 6 HD range was totally remodelled from the ground up. It's not based on the X3 range nor the original POD 2 range. I spoke to a Line 6 developer years ago [now at Strymon] and he said the original POD 2 tones were awesome when run on a high-end workstation. Unfortunately, the processing power available when the original POD was launched did affect the overall tone. It's one reason the original POD tones are still with us - better cheaper processors have breathed new life into the original code. The biggest ball ache with Line 6 is the lack of compatibility between devices - the new HD range isn't compatible with the X3 range which isn't compatible with the POD 2 range.

I also don't see the need to keep developing new modelling solutions - it either sounds good or it doesn't. I still use an old POD 2 to record sometimes - it's easy to get a decent recorded tone. Playing live is different.

As for software I don't think it sells well. None of the major players have launched anything new for years - IK Multimedia is still using the ancient Amplitube 3 engine and has merely modelled some new kit. There havn't been any major players entering the market and Line 6 hasn't released anything new for years.

viz · April 2014

I just use a vox ig stomplab when I can't take my amps. It's absolutely fine and was 50 quid new. Play it through a 40 quid passive DI box straight into a desk and you've got a complete amp and effects unit with tuner.

The only thing it doesn't have is stereo out, and I tend to put a tubescreamer in front of it, and a wah (though they do a version with an expression pedal).

http://www.voxamps.com/uk/pedals/stomplab/

Clarky · April 2014

I do all my guitar stuff with the Axe-FX II, live and studio

I have other modelling AU's [Guitar Rig, GT Pro and what comes with Logic] and hardware [VG-99], and none of it gets even remotely close to the Axe.

the VG-99 sounds superb providing you don't expect it to sound exactly like the amp it's supposed to be modelling. It'll sound 'similar' to the 'name' of the amp being modelled but not exact. That aside, it does sound very very good.

Guitar Rig is great, I love it, but not for guitars. Throw it on a synth etc and you can do amazing stuff..

but don't go putting a guitar anywhere near it... sounds like a kazoo

steveyraff · April 2014

I use some amp plugins in a creative sense too - not as often for actual guitar though. When it comes to amp software, I tend to have an increasing problem as the amount of gain/drive increases. I've used it quite successfully on lower gain recordings to add a little bit extra to blues solos etc. I find those with built in mic-placement emulation to be highly exaggerated and harsh.

Occasionally I do also use Logic Pro's pedalboard feature for other similar and related effects - but to be honest, they sound very similar to the plugins I've wrote myself using MAX/MSP. More people should try writing their own for some simpler applications. Its very rewarding. A lot of these kind of plugins out there are wrote on it to begin with anyway. With a little learning its quite easy to cut out the middle man.

The only other thing I can think of, its obviously handy for re-amping. I use it regularly for that with various bands in the studio. Just for DI tracking and then taken off again later. Anyway, I think in a few years time it'll all be much better for higher gain applications too. I haven't invested much in them just yet as I am kind of holding out for near future developments. Actually I quite liked Scuffham S-Gear for hi-gain, but it lacked on features in most other ways - still, its not great.

Very impressed with Axe-FX so far. I few people came into the studio with them and they really sound brilliant.

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How's amp modelling these days?

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