grouping of makers & doers into categories (bodywork/finishers/pickups/effects) for quick reference?

vale · August 2018

was thinking about approaching some makers/doers here to ask about a body and fnishing, and it requires a bit of digging around (company names not always a clue to what they do).

anyway i wondered whether there may be a way for them to be organised, or to organise themselves, into categories according to what they do. just a simple standard template entry for each and a link to their website:

bodywork,
finishing,
pickups,
amps,
effects,
etc.

that way someone who wanted to wanted to quickly locate all the pickup winders on a the forum could find them all in one place, instead of a lot of digging in or putting out a shout 'does anyone know someone who?' etc.

maybe this already exists somewhere and i'm being exceedingly dim in not being able to find it. but it seems quite a simple logical way to arrange basic 'yellow pages' style info. a thought anyway.

WezV · August 2018

the problem will always be the number of sections that don't get looked at. Made in the UK already has that issue, splitting it into categories would make it worse.

A stickied directory linking to their profiles or on going threads may work

The other issue would be categorising the business members who have fingers in multiple pies.

Bridgehouse · August 2018

WezV said:

the problem will always be the number of sections that don't get looked at. Made in the UK already has that issue, splitting it into categories would make it worse.

A stickied directory linking to their profiles or on going threads may work

The other issue would be categorising the business members who have fingers in multiple pies.

A stickied directory... that's an idea. @TTony ?

TTony · August 2018

vale said:

maybe this already exists somewhere and i'm being exceedingly dim in not being able to find it. but it seems quite a simple logical way to arrange basic 'yellow pages' style info. a thought anyway.

I can answer the question that it doesn't already exist in any logical / structured format anywhere.

Unfortunately, I can't answer the question about you being exceedingly dim.

If you spend anytime in the Making & Modding section (or browse the Made in UK section), then you'd probably know who does what, but that doesn't help anyone who hasn't live in those sections regularly, so perhaps it's something we should do.

Somehow.

The bugger is in keeping lists/directories like that updated. We had something similar with the recommended luthiers and amp techs threads, which then depend on someone keeping a "directory" type thread updated with all the posts that get added.

FelineGuitars · August 2018

if more people actually looked in "made in UK" , rather than opting to have it not appear in their discussions feed (because nothing good is made in UK), then they might see some cool stuff.

Bridgehouse · August 2018

FelineGuitars said:

if more people actually looked in "made in UK" , rather than opting to have it not appear in their discussions feed (because nothing good is made in UK), then they might see some cool stuff.

Made in the UK and Making and Modding are two of the best forums (apart from Bass, of course) and everyone should visit them far more regularly...

DrBob · August 2018

Bridgehouse said:

FelineGuitars said:

if more people actually looked in "made in UK" , rather than opting to have it not appear in their discussions feed (because nothing good is made in UK), then they might see some cool stuff.

Made in the UK and Making and Modding are two of the best forums (apart from Bass, of course) and everyone should visit them far more regularly...

I agree, it’s where I spend most of my forum time !

Funkfingers · August 2018

IMO, there are plenty of good makers and repairers across the UK. The problem for an individual in need of their services is that the provider needs to be within reasonable travelling distance.

It would be unhelpful to recommend a repairer in, say, Newcastle to a guitar owner in Exeter. There is also little point in recommending somebody whose workshop services are fully booked weeks into the future.

vale · August 2018

TTony said:

vale said:

maybe this already exists somewhere and i'm being exceedingly dim in not being able to find it. but it seems quite a simple logical way to arrange basic 'yellow pages' style info. a thought anyway.

I can answer the question that it doesn't already exist in any logical / structured format anywhere.

Unfortunately, I can't answer the question about you being exceedingly dim.

If you spend anytime in the Making & Modding section (or browse the Made in UK section), then you'd probably know who does what, but that doesn't help anyone who hasn't live in those sections regularly, so perhaps it's something we should do.

Somehow.

The bugger is in keeping lists/directories like that updated. We had something similar with the recommended luthiers and amp techs threads, which then depend on someone keeping a "directory" type thread updated with all the posts that get added.

thanks for the reply @TTony ; (and the discretion, re dimnitude).

i'm in m&m most visits, to follow personal builds and marvel at skills. and i dip into miuk now and then, so can name a few makers/doers in each category but not all (i don't have the purse for custom and boutique, hence m&m interest).

i definitely wouldn't want to propose something that became an admin nightmare if adopted. so was thinking basic basic, not new subforum or complex. maybe a spreadsheet of some kind?

categories of 'making and doing' along one axis, and 'makers and doers' names (with a link to their tfb thread and their website) along the other.
and they could check against things they do in the grid. or perhaps the checking of could be done by admin for a small token fee to tfb, so the list was locked.

that way a prospective customer for finishing could run their eye along whichever category or 'making and doing' they were interested in, and then dig into individual makers for a closer look to see if they are what they are looking for.

on a desktop computer that may be ok. on a phone maybe too small. but could be as simple as a single spreadsheet. as easy as poss on mod time and patience, while delivering the basics.

btw it's good to see your avatar around again. keep it in condition TT!

GoldenEraGuitars · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

There is also little point in recommending somebody whose workshop services are fully booked weeks into the future.

That is one of the very reasons why you’d want to jump in the queue. Surely they’re busy for a reason?

Not enough people look in the made in the UK section to justify a separate list of people and contact info. Anyone interested in services within the uk know where to look if needs be

vale · August 2018

lonestar said:

Not enough people look in the made in the UK section to justify a separate list of people and contact info. Anyone interested in services within the uk know where to look if needs be

that's a bit like 'if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it'.

maybe some 'newbies, innocents and unawares' would get more involved in the section but for that very sense that if they don't already know who they are looking for, they shouldn't really be just wandering around in there.
that may be an exaggerated impression, but there's potential for a negative cycle in there that fails both sides.

but we are all born ignorant and innocent. the easier you make it for people to get involved, the more likely they will do so, in my experience.

TTony · August 2018

I'll think on it some more.

One of *my* priorities when we set the forum up was for it to act as another platform for the smaller UK businesses. That's my personal prejudice / preference, and I've repeatedly spent my money with those businesses rather than the traditionals (IIRC, I've got one G, no Fs and a couple of PRS - the rest are lesser-found names!).

Anything that makes it easier for others to find those businesses is "a good thing" in my book - just need to find a sensible way of implementing it.

I think I'd ask any business that was included on the list/directory/whatever, to take the time to create and maintain a "here I am" thread here though - much as @FelineGuitars ; does.

TTony · August 2018

vale said:

btw it's good to see your avatar around again. keep it in condition TT!

Thanks @vale.

GoldenEraGuitars · August 2018

@vale not at all. The way businesses here get real exposure is by posting a link in the guitar section which takes you to the made in the uk section. You tend to find the same people commenting and following the same threads. It means that there is little (new) interaction and in some of the threads the only poster is whoever owns the business.

This is a forum, people can interact if they want to but in the made in the uk section they don’t for some reason. One click takes you into the section and people are free to browse. What more can be done?

OilCityPickups · August 2018

An issue I have here is regarding classic pickup restorations and rewinds. I've posted lots over the years, but less of late. They take a lot of work to photograph and write 'copy' for, but if few people will see them I'm somewhat demotivated.
I see them as general interest ... seeing inside classic bits of kit that other folks seldom get a chance to ...

Funkfingers · August 2018

TheGuitarWeasel said:

An issue I have here is regarding classic pickup restorations and rewinds. I've posted lots over the years, but less of late. They take a lot of work to photograph and write 'copy' for, but if few people will see them I'm somewhat demotivated. I see them as general interest ... seeing inside classic bits of kit that other folks seldom get a chance to.

That degree of scrutiny is deeper than most people wish to go. You have a professional interest. A small number of geeky enthusiasts seek that level of detail. Most punters just want their instruments to work for them rather than against.

Even those who think that they understand the significance of the innards of old pickups have no immediate need for information beyond satisfying their curiosity. Few will go to the trouble of attempting to build pickups themselves.

The curse of any specialist interest is that few others care enough to wish to share in it.

Roland · August 2018

The up side is that it builds credibility.

What we find in Made in the UK, and in Making and Modding, is that many people follow a thread but don’t comment. It’s not like Off Topic where lots of people make smart arse comments. I would not normally comment on one of @TheGuitarWeasel ‘s rebuild threads because I have nothing useful to add. I’m fascinated by his knowledge, and the questionable quality of many historic pickups. The same goes for one of @WezV ‘s build threads.

OilCityPickups · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

An issue I have here is regarding classic pickup restorations and rewinds. I've posted lots over the years, but less of late. They take a lot of work to photograph and write 'copy' for, but if few people will see them I'm somewhat demotivated. I see them as general interest ... seeing inside classic bits of kit that other folks seldom get a chance to.

That degree of scrutiny is deeper than most people wish to go. You have a professional interest. A small number of geeky enthusiasts seek that level of detail. Most punters just want their instruments to work for them rather than against.

Even those who think that they understand the significance of the innards of old pickups have no immediate need for information beyond satisfying their curiosity. Few will go to the trouble of attempting to build pickups themselves.

The curse of any specialist interest is that few others care enough to wish to share in it.

Then I'm correct not to continue posting them here. I've been posting them of late on my own Oil City blog and that will suffice.

TTony · August 2018

TheGuitarWeasel said:

Funkfingers said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:

An issue I have here is regarding classic pickup restorations and rewinds. I've posted lots over the years, but less of late. They take a lot of work to photograph and write 'copy' for, but if few people will see them I'm somewhat demotivated. I see them as general interest ... seeing inside classic bits of kit that other folks seldom get a chance to.

That degree of scrutiny is deeper than most people wish to go. You have a professional interest. A small number of geeky enthusiasts seek that level of detail. Most punters just want their instruments to work for them rather than against.

Even those who think that they understand the significance of the innards of old pickups have no immediate need for information beyond satisfying their curiosity. Few will go to the trouble of attempting to build pickups themselves.

The curse of any specialist interest is that few others care enough to wish to share in it.

Then I'm correct not to continue posting them here. I've been posting them of late on my own Oil City blog and that will suffice.

I'd disagree @TheGuitarWeasel.

FunkFingers doesn't speak for the forum, nor for anyone other than himself.

If you decide that you're too busy to post them here too, then that's another matter. But I (and I speak only for myself!) won't see them on your blog.

Bridgehouse · August 2018

Roland said:

The up side is that it builds credibility.

What we find in Made in the UK, and in Making and Modding, is that many people follow a thread but don’t comment. It’s not like Off Topic where lots of people make smart arse comments. I would not normally comment on one of @TheGuitarWeasel ‘s rebuild threads because I have nothing useful to add. I’m fascinated by his knowledge, and the questionable quality of many historic pickups. The same goes for one of @WezV ‘s build threads.

Agreed. I don’t expect a lot of comments on my build threads when I’m doing a partscaster bass - but from some PMs I get with questions over materials and techniques I know a lot of people are reading them.

If you go by the “views” count you get a good idea - I’ve had a couple of threads with high views counts and low comments counts. That’s fine by me. I know I’m not talking to myself then

OilCityPickups · August 2018

I never worry about quantity of comments on build/restoration threads as I see them more as interactive 'articles' rather than forum discussions. Really the only issue is if they are actually being read, otherwise it's a fairly pointless process :-)

With the endless debates on what is or is not an accurate reissue of this or that classic pickup I certainly thought that helping to blow the lid of some misconceptions by showing some valuable originals and how they were made back in the day was a useful exercise.

Image: https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6abf16_590c6bef6e1e4becbd5e847abe0a911f~mv2_d_4557_3168_s_4_2.jpg/v1/fill/w_630,h_438,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/6abf16_590c6bef6e1e4becbd5e847abe0a911f~mv2_d_4557_3168_s_4_2.webp

This 64 Tele pickup turned out to be a 70s or 80s (very poor) rewind ... note the 'definitely not Fender' blue tape visible in the top hole ...

I always try to find time to post things that are interesting or informative ... but it would be nice if 'made in the UK' was a little less messy, and a little less of a backwater.

NPP · August 2018

do continue to post @TheGuitarWeasel I love reading your build and repair threads but they are too infrequent to keep checking your blog for so I usually only find out when you post on here.

Funkfingers · August 2018

TTony said:
Funkfingers doesn't speak for the forum, nor for anyone other than himself.

The dunces are in confederacy against him.

TheGuitarWeasel said:
Then I'm correct not to continue posting them here. I've been posting them of late on my own Oil City blog and that will suffice.

By definition, visitors to your web site and blog ARE interested in pickups in general and yours in particular. They are a self-selecting bunch.

The argument for posting on a public Interweb forum is that you might attract the occasional browser who had not previously been aware of you and your products.

OilCityPickups · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

TTony said:
Funkfingers doesn't speak for the forum, nor for anyone other than himself.

The dunces are in confederacy against him.

TheGuitarWeasel said:
Then I'm correct not to continue posting them here. I've been posting them of late on my own Oil City blog and that will suffice.

By definition, visitors to your web site and blog ARE interested in pickups in general and yours in particular. They are a self-selecting bunch.

The argument for posting on a public Interweb forum is that you might attract the occasional browser who had not previously been aware of you and your products.

That would assume that post pickup restoration 'stories' as advertising. Actually I make a tiny fraction of my turnover out of restorations., and they soak up way more time than can be justified by what I can charge. I have no real need to tout for restoration business ... it usually finds its way to me.
As my father and grandfather were both engineers I have a built in interest in how things work, and as a lover of all things classic and old, I love getting dead kit up and doing what it was built for.

My original motivation for putting up restoration threads was to help generate content for the then 'new' forum: as we had to hit the ground running after the demise of 'the previous place' ... sure I might have gained a few sales since those days through the rebuilds, but the intent was to entertain and inform. To show the work that goes on behind the scenes when you send a pickup away to get fixed.

normula1 · August 2018

I look at M&M pretty much every visit and Made in UK every other as I'm fascinated with the skills posters have that in my heart of hearts I know I'm unlikely to ever have.

vale · August 2018

Roland said:

The up side is that it builds credibility.

What we find in Made in the UK, and in Making and Modding, is that many people follow a thread but don’t comment. It’s not like Off Topic where lots of people make smart arse comments. I would not normally comment on one of @TheGuitarWeasel ‘s rebuild threads because I have nothing useful to add. I’m fascinated by his knowledge, and the questionable quality of many historic pickups. The same goes for one of @WezV ‘s build threads.

same as. i usually go into mute wows and wisdoms because apart from saying 'it's wonderful, keep going' i often can't think of anything i could add to those threads that wouldn't be more distraction than contribution. but the view count should give a fuller picture of genuine depth of interest.

vale · August 2018

lonestar said:

@vale not at all. The way businesses here get real exposure is by posting a link in the guitar section which takes you to the made in the uk section. You tend to find the same people commenting and following the same threads. It means that there is little (new) interaction and in some of the threads the only poster is whoever owns the business.

i appreciate that's the status quo, and it clearly works well for some. but can it be improved upon?
it's also maker-doer active, potential customer passive. which may suit those maker-doers who are good at putting themselves out there, but they may only be the tip of the iceberg.

but if a potential customer wants to find out who all the finishers on the forum are, check out examples of their work, then make contact, it's not so easy.
if you have been here years, then you will know a few names, but everyone arrives here new.

obviously the easiest way is to put out a shout in a comment, but that requires a different shout for each person who wants something done (allowing for repeat business), and relies on someone who can recommend the right finisher for them to notice their appeal and respond to that. hit and miss and quite contingent.

whereas with a simple list of names, services and links, they would instantly know who does what on the fourm, and how to get in touch with them, so they could go from thinking about doing something to initiating contact themselves, without recourse to apublic appeals or luck.

lonestar said:

This is a forum, people can interact if they want to but in the made in the uk section they don’t for some reason. One click takes you into the section and people are free to browse. What more can be done?

but (to someone like me who hasn't been here years and doesn't just know) it's a bit like looking for a shop you don't know the name of in a town you've never been to before.
i can scroll through for a while and get a general impression of what is going on. but it's wandering around, optimistic but hit and miss.

if you were going to paris, berlin, bcn for the weekend, would you wander around (hopefully but aimlessly) all weekend in an area you heard there was a music shop, or would you look in yellow pages for a list so you could get going and in there asap?

it could be a list, or an x/y axis spreadsheet, or chart. maybe it's a bad idea and maybe it can't be done.
it was basically me thinking out aloud about how things could be made simpler or more direct.

TTony · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

TTony said:
Funkfingers doesn't speak for the forum, nor for anyone other than himself.

The dunces are in confederacy against him.

Apologies @FunkFingers - I probably read meaning into your comment - and Ash's @theGuitarWesel reply - which wasn't there, but led me to think that he was going to stop his posts here on the basis of your comment. Being a long-term supporter of his work (verbally and financially), that made me uncomfortable.

TheGuitarWeasel said:

That would assume that post pickup restoration 'stories' as advertising.

It's not the old "look at this, buy this, it'll make your clothes whiter" advertising. It's far more effective in that it demonstrates - in detail - your expertise and capabilities. That establishes your credibility far more effectively than any of that old "advertising" ever could. And posts like that persuaded me to trust you with my ££s all those years ago, and probably many others too. Keep those posts coming Ash.

vale said:
but (to someone like me who hasn't been here years and doesn't just know) it's a bit like looking for a shop you don't know the name of in a town you've never been to before.
i can scroll through for a while and get a general impression of what is going on. but it's wandering around, optimistic but hit and miss.

And that's why I think we can do better. Just haven't worked out how to do it better without creating a load more work for ourselves yet!

Funkfingers · August 2018

TTony said:
Funkfingers - I probably read meaning into your comment - and Ash's reply - which wasn't there, but led me to think that he was going to stop his posts here on the basis of your comment. Being a long-term supporter of his work (verbally and financially), that made me uncomfortable.

My comment came after Ash's post in which he wondering aloud whether it was worth his time and trouble to make *inside* information about his pickup rewinding available to the general guitar buying public.

I like to think that I have some understanding of how much work is involved in taking photographs whilst doing the job and, then, composing text to describe/explain what is visible in the photographs without resorting to jargon any more than absolutely necessary.

Don't take my word for anything, folks. Gauge the level of interest in the inner workings of guitar pickups by getting technical with the average end user. Watch their eyes glaze over. Fifteen seconds could be enough.

Some self-employed friends of mine run an ecologically-friendly website design business. Margins have always been tight. Any activity that does not bring in money is unceremoniously dropped - including not replying to voicemail messages unless they contain firm orders.

The extent my support of Ash's work is confined to one pair of pickups that I purchased through this forum approximately a year ago. Unless or until I crack open my wallet, I do not expect Ash to take the slightest notice of me - maybe, not even then.

Roland · August 2018

lonestar said:

@vale not at all. The way businesses here get real exposure is by posting a link in the guitar section which takes you to the made in the uk section. You tend to find the same people commenting and following the same threads. It means that there is little (new) interaction and in some of the threads the only poster is whoever owns the business.

This is a forum, people can interact if they want to but in the made in the uk section they don’t for some reason. One click takes you into the section and people are free to browse. What more can be done?

I’m not sure that the “like” and “click through” models works here. If you’re selling volume products to a mass market then “click through” is an easy metric to measure page hits. In itself it doesn’t tell you how interested someone was. Even dwell time doesn’t tell you whether they will buy.

The marketing value of the forum works in two ways. It opens up interest. I’ve always modded my guitars, but without this forum I wouldn’t have started building them from scratch, with all the purchases that ensue. The forum also gives credibility, both in someone’s abilities, and their trustworthiness. I know who I’ll turn to if I want a neck made, a body painted, or a pickup wound. Without this forum I wouldn’t have known that you guys were in business.

OilCityPickups · August 2018

Funkfingers said:

TTony said:
Funkfingers - I probably read meaning into your comment - and Ash's reply - which wasn't there, but led me to think that he was going to stop his posts here on the basis of your comment. Being a long-term supporter of his work (verbally and financially), that made me uncomfortable.

My comment came after Ash's post in which he wondering aloud whether it was worth his time and trouble to make *inside* information about his pickup rewinding available to the general guitar buying public.

I like to think that I have some understanding of how much work is involved in taking photographs whilst doing the job and, then, composing text to describe/explain what is visible in the photographs without resorting to jargon any more than absolutely necessary.

Don't take my word for anything, folks. Gauge the level of interest in the inner workings of guitar pickups by getting technical with the average end user. Watch their eyes glaze over. Fifteen seconds could be enough.

Some self-employed friends of mine run an ecologically-friendly website design business. Margins have always been tight. Any activity that does not bring in money is unceremoniously dropped - including not replying to voicemail messages unless they contain firm orders.

The extent my support of Ash's work is confined to one pair of pickups that I purchased through this forum approximately a year ago. Unless or until I crack open my wallet, I do not expect Ash to take the slightest notice of me - maybe, not even then.

"My comment came after Ash's post in which he wondering aloud whether it was worth his time and trouble to make *inside* information about his pickup rewinding available to the general guitar buying public."

Not correct, look back up the thread.

"Don't take my word for anything, folks. Gauge the level of interest in the inner workings of guitar pickups by getting technical with the average end user. Watch their eyes glaze over. Fifteen seconds could be enough."

Not true: In some senses I wish it was, it would save me hours a week answering technical e mails, and being on the phone to customers for sometimes an hour plus each! The 'average customer' is far more technically savvy than say five years ago.

"Some self-employed friends of mine run an ecologically-friendly website design business. Margins have always been tight. Any activity that does not bring in money is unceremoniously dropped - including not replying to voicemail messages unless they contain firm orders."

Since when is answering customer enquiries not going to bring in money? When you answer an potential customer's enquiry your job in any business is to convert that interest into a sale. If you don't take that opportunity you are simply a shit businessman!

"The extent my support of Ash's work is confined to one pair of pickups that I purchased through this forum approximately a year ago. Unless or until I crack open my wallet, I do not expect Ash to take the slightest notice of me - maybe, not even then."

I always take notice of public reaction to what I do, and especially to customer reaction. That's what running a business is all about. Acting on the more subjective aspects of some of those reactions is another matter. Lasting as long as we have in this (these days overcrowded) business takes a certain bull headedness (as well as a willingness to work seven days a week for next to bugger all) :-)

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grouping of makers & doers into categories (bodywork/finishers/pickups/effects) for quick reference?

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