Decibel level

MazzaG · March 2014

Afternoon everyone,

My band's first proper gig is coming up this Saturday and we decided to take a 'battle of the bands' slot primarily to get experience gigging.

We've been forwarded the gig details (soundcheck times, equipment etc) and it states that the decibel limit for the venue is 90db.They cannot exceed this.

We're quite a loud band who often implement the 'quiet verse - loud chorus' style of songwriting and I'm a bit concerned as in my head I imagine 90db to be pretty quiet for a gig. I've looked at examples and some state a food blender is 90db! Fire alarms are supposed to be 100db.

It's also made me worry a bit about the use of my overdrive pedal which I use in most songs.

As I am clueless when it come to decibel levels can anyone enlighten me, perhaps even reassure me?
Thanks

steamabacus · March 2014

Your drummer and bass player are going to have to learn to keep it down.

MazzaG · March 2014

Uh oh, I'll let the soundguy tell them that!

DannyP · March 2014

If it's a Battle of the Bands, I'm assuming that the venue will be supplying the PA and sound man. If that's the case, as long as you do as you're told, it's their problem to worry about really.

The key with these things is to be really co-operative and get the sound man on-side. Be prepared, set up quick and be 'good blokes' (which can be trickier than you expect when you're a bit tense and nervous!). Set amp levels to whatever the sound man tells you to, and be his best mate - even if he's an arse.

Maybe try to rehearse at a quieter level in preparation to see if you can still get your dynamics working with a lower max volume?

At the end of the day there's a minimum volume of a rock band with a live drummer, and if the venue can't cater for that, they have no business hosting a Battle of the Bands.

MazzaG · March 2014

DannyP said:

If it's a Battle of the Bands, I'm assuming that the venue will be supplying the PA and sound man. If that's the case, as long as you do as you're told, it's their problem to worry about really.

The key with these things is to be really co-operative and get the sound man on-side. Be prepared, set up quick and be 'good blokes' (which can be trickier than you expect when you're a bit tense and nervous!). Set amp levels to whatever the sound man tells you to, and be his best mate - even if he's an arse.

Maybe try to rehearse at a quieter level in preparation to see if you can still get your dynamics working with a lower max volume?

At the end of the day there's a minimum volume of a rock band with a live drummer, and if the venue can't cater for that, they have no business hosting a Battle of the Bands.

A PA and Soundman are provided yes. I have read numerous times about getting him in your good books and to be perfectly honest that makes a lot of sense. In fact performance wise it seems suicidal to NOT want him on your side.

I will suggest that quiet rehearsal as well.

Great advice given thanks mate.

ToneControl · March 2014

90dB???

that's dumb, http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

according to this you can do 8 hours a day, everyday at that level with no harm done

Most classical instruments can get past 100dB

Roland · March 2014

Audience applause can blow 90dB

MazzaG · March 2014

You lot could have bloody lied to me!

Danny1969 · March 2014

Depends on the weighting, A weighting takes into account the way we hear (fletcher munson curve) C weighting on meters are more geared towards peaks so more easily triggered on every snare hit and bass can be a prob

Distance is a big factor too, a snare drum can be a deafening 120dB a metre away but perfectly tolerable 15 metres away

MazzaG · March 2014

Danny1969 said:

Depends on the weighting, A weighting takes into account the way we hear (fletcher munson curve) C weighting on meters are more geared towards peaks so more easily triggered on every snare hit and bass can be a prob

Distance is a big factor too, a snare drum can be a deafening 120dB a metre away but perfectly tolerable 15 metres away

Never actually thought of that, it's all relative to the distance it's been measured from right?

Danny1969 · March 2014

MazzaG said:

Danny1969 said:

Depends on the weighting, A weighting takes into account the way we hear (fletcher munson curve) C weighting on meters are more geared towards peaks so more easily triggered on every snare hit and bass can be a prob

Distance is a big factor too, a snare drum can be a deafening 120dB a metre away but perfectly tolerable 15 metres away

Never actually thought of that, it's all relative to the distance it's been measured from right?

Yes .....also high frequencies lose their energy quicker in air then low frequencies .... so the further you get from the source of the noise the lower the volume and the more muffled it sounds

Cirrus · March 2014

90db sounds more like a noise ordinance a certain distance from the venue. It's typically a totally arbitrary number with no practical real world value whatsoever, but if they want <90dB inside a room with live music they're either misinterpreting a rule or misinformed. Just be reasonable with their requests when you sound check, see how it goes. Either way put on your best show, and good luck!

ICBM · April 2014

I was once in an (admittedly quite posh) bar with one of those dB meter trip things on the wall above the stage… it was an acoustic band, so while we were setting up the PA I decided to have a laugh and see how loud my Lowden acoustic was unplugged (Lowd-en… never mind

). I strummed an open G chord as hard as I could.

Three red bars. ie one notch below it shutting the power off. Oh. I think this is going to be a quiet gig

.

johnnyurq · April 2014

Who remembers the orange golf ball thingies that turned the stage power off once triggered?

The scourge of live venues and amplifiers (mainly valve) everywhere, bloody hateful they were.

The first time we encountered one our tame drummer (really!) setup and did a fairly inoffensive roll to test his snare and boom out went the lights, he wasn't even a heavy hitter being more technical in his approach.

I hope we never see their like again.

David5150 · April 2014

Man sound limiters are a nightmare - I've come across a few in my time including our first gig in our current band for a mates 40th Birthday party in front of 100 close friends - no pressure.

As soon as we walked in some great hippo of a woman came thundering across with a clipboard bellowing that if we played too loud all the power would go off and they would charge us for calling an electrician to reset the circuits.

OK we thought, we can live with this, its not a big venue, so we asked the hippo what the limnit was - she just barked not too loud. She said that the orange light on the ceiling would flash if we were getting too loud and would stay on before cutting everything off. We stared at this fecking light which was already on - as the caterers were clanking around underneath it. Not a good start to the gig.

To cut a long story short we spent the soundcheck staring at this stupid thing on the ceiling and it was on all the time. Played really softly in the first set which sounded cack for a rock band so in the first break we decided, as many bands do, to dig out the old extension lead and bypass the active circuit and let rip. Who was the one person giving it large on the dancefloor - the hippo with the clipboard who couldn't work out how we were managing to sound so good and not trip the meter!!

Mind you we did this at a later wedding gig and our moron bassplayer managed to unplug some bit of catering equipment which didn't go down too well.

And while I'm on it - music stands look stupid!!!

Danny1969 · April 2014

There's been a few venue's over the years that where we haven't managed to bribe the manager leaving only 2 options. If you can get between the mic and the box, where it plugs in with a 3.5mm jack you can put an attenuater in line .... mine's just 2 resistors in a potential divider circuit and the outputs tapped off the middle meaning you can play a lot louder before it trips.

The other sure fire way to bypass it is to run the band of a big UPS, I have a huge 19" 3.2KW that can run the band and PA for about 35 mins. We've wheeled that in before but it weighs a ton! FOH has it's own smaller UPS as it's a digital desk, and you can't risk losing power with a digital desk even without a noise limiter

RocknRollDave · April 2014

By a huge coincidence, we played our first gig with a sound limit in eons last week...As it happened, it was a hand held device to just monitor the level so they could gesticulate wildy at us when we went over it, rather than an actual "abrupt halt to proceedings" cut-off thingy.

BUT the limit was indeed 90dB.

And it was pretty damn quiet. Your drummer will be tippity-tapping, and your bassist can have the night off.

ESBlonde · April 2014

I remember those orange balls that glow and then cut off the power.
The first encounter had the drummer tapping cymbals as he set then on the stand, the power went off! Long extensions have been the order of the day ever since, kitchens and behind the bar are usually the exempt sockets.

Poor quality mics (with erratic frequency response) are a part of the problem, but poor implementation is also often at fault.

David5150 · April 2014

Danny1969 said:

There's been a few venue's over the years that where we haven't managed to bribe the manager leaving only 2 options. If you can get between the mic and the box, where it plugs in with a 3.5mm jack you can put an attenuater in line .... mine's just 2 resistors in a potential divider circuit and the outputs tapped off the middle meaning you can play a lot louder before it trips.

The other sure fire way to bypass it is to run the band of a big UPS, I have a huge 19" 3.2KW that can run the band and PA for about 35 mins. We've wheeled that in before but it weighs a ton! FOH has it's own smaller UPS as it's a digital desk, and you can't risk losing power with a digital desk even without a noise limiter

A bit more low tech is a sock or a condom over the microphone

David5150 · April 2014

RocknRollDave said:

. Your drummer will be tippity-tapping, and your bassist can have the night off.

Result!!!!

chrispy108 · April 2014

Make sure the soundman has heard all of your sounds (clean, overdrive, lead whatever) during the soundcheck. No point just sound checking with your quiet sound then kicking it in and busting the limit.

johnnyurq · April 2014

Didn't want to fess up to the long extension and muffling the mic hihg jinks in case any venue peeps were tuning in and sussed why it stoppped working.

johnnyurq · April 2014

chrispy108;201879" said:
Make sure the soundman has heard all of your sounds (clean, overdrive, lead whatever) during the soundcheck. No point just sound checking with your quiet sound then kicking it in and busting the limit.

Interestingly this is my approach since years as I use VG/Variax and GR kit as well as traditional rigs and most sound dudes bar one or two gave the 1000 yard stare and only let me sound check clean ish and OD tones then moving on swiftly.

Luckily I spent a lot of time balancing tone volumes and acoustic models etc so it never sounded like ass.

maltingsaudio · April 2014

Thing is '@mazzag as its a Battle of the bands thing all bands are in the same boat however you've done the gig how did it go?

chrispy108 · April 2014

I can see why the soundman doesn't want to go through 1000s of sounds @johnnyurg, but you should definately check your loudest and your quietest.

johnnyurq · April 2014

@chrispy108

That is quite an assumption you've jumped to there.

I wasn't meaning 1000's just a few pertinent examples because EQing for a clean and dirty electric tone whilst ignoring lead sounds and acoustic/synth tones I didn't feel was in any way helpful to me or them.

Then they look surprised and pissed when summat they never expected happening despite bieng told and me recommending checkin a handful of various patches.

chrispy108 · April 2014

Yup, sorry wasn't aiming that as a dig at you at all. In your case definitely can see why you'd want those sounds checked.

But, from the point of view of the soundguy, imagine how many guitarists he's had who want to show of their 15 different, but basically identical overdrives, 3 chorus pedals, 4 delays etc etc in a soundcheck.

Perhaps take a written list of your various patches you can leave with him? Would show you know what you're talking about?

matt1973 · April 2014

Comfortable talking level = 65db

100w marshall at full tilt = 120db

Pain = 125db

In band terms this is gonna feel very quiet if you play at loud practice levels. The other factor is where in the venue should it not exceed this limit?

If there's a cut-off device, 2 suggestions:

1) Have a run through playing as quiet as you possibly can, win the sound man over and play the gig as best you can.

2) Win the sound man over, bring a couple of very long mains extensions, figure out what power points aren't hooked up to the limiter, run the extensions from wherever that is and ROCK OUT.

chrispy108 · April 2014

To the OP, you want to try and explain to the soundman that you want the cleans to be quieter than the distorted sounds.

I've seen gigs where the soundman spent the whole set riding the faders trying to balance the guitar sounds, somewhat taking away the impact of the changes.

Little bit of communication goes a long way.

johnnyurq · April 2014

chrispy108;202079" said:
Yup, sorry wasn't aiming that as a dig at you at all. In your case definitely can see why you'd want those sounds checked.But, from the point of view of the soundguy, imagine how many guitarists he's had who want to show of their 15 different, but basically identical overdrives, 3 chorus pedals, 4 delays etc etc in a soundcheck.Perhaps take a written list of your various

No worries I wasn't being nippy about it and thought it just common sense really.

I get what you mean with some overzealous types but I am mid 40's and not prone to trying to show off (blending in is best) plus the gigs I mention it was no more than 2 or 3 bands on the bill.

Having ran sound for other bands and looking after my old bands sound I get the whole annoying peeps being a pain, but to avoid surprises 5 minutes to head them off is time well spent. Plus being paid to do a job doesn't mean huffing at well meaning newbies (or oldies in my case) unless they are being proper douches in which case then rant away.

I am always respectful and as helpful as possible to any sound person knowing how thankless it can be and so to ensure all goes smoothly. But an awful lot get very defensive and do as little as possible to help you and them have a good night. Which in turn should make for a good gig for all and most importantly the punters.

Some bands can be assholes and I have witnessed this first hand but in my decades of gigging over the years the most cynical and worst culprits have been jaded sound guys. I also saw this as crew working in Theatre, although the more experienced and truly pro dudes were always a joy to work with.
.

Cirrus · April 2014

chrispy108;202104" said:
To the OP, you want to try and explain to the soundman that you want the cleans to be quieter than the distorted sounds.

I've seen gigs where the soundman spent the whole set riding the faders trying to balance the guitar sounds, somewhat taking away the impact of the changes.

Little bit of communication goes a long way.

This goes back to the Live sound thread where I said I like the bands performance to define itself - Here.

The soundman shouldn't have to do that sort of stuff. He should be able to get you to play a section of song as a soundcheck, set the guitar level relative to the drums and vocals that makes sense, then all your other sounds fall into place because you've taken the time to get your relative volumes sorted - quiet bits are quiet, loud bits are loud, solos get their own boost. That way you're in charge of your performance, you're not leaving the musical impact in the hands of someone who's winging it.

Of course good soundmen will still ride the mix as they feel appropriate but you make their job so much easier when you incorporate the dynamic changes into your own performance.

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