Soloing over A major to C major?

frankus · March 2014

To be clear, I'm not awarding you the awards.
I'm not against improvement, I've had lessons and classes with some biggish names.

To my mind there's nothing but getting by. Scraping by, in fact. But it's like a computer game... go back to the earlier levels and it's a breeze... but where you are in the game, you're always scraping by.. it's a sure sign you're always getting fresh challenges.

Eric Roche said "Head, Hand and Heart all have to be working in unison" ... or something like that... and he might have borrowed it from Fritz Lang... but there's no point learning theory you'll never use.

Theory attracts people who for whatever reason aren't all that fussed about "hand" or "heart" ... and avoidant people (might be one and the same) are attracted to the internet... take me for instance, in life I'm a red setter but I come here to pretend to be something other than I am and avoid having a wet nose jammed in my hoop as a "how do ya do". Seriously I'm a dog with a big keyboard..

To my mind you're playing about with modulation, the sus backdoors it a bit... ultimately there are only 12 notes and 4 chords... loop it play each note over each chord, sort them into order. See if the sus makes that much difference...

I've grown to disregard theory as a means of approach because creating the whole thing from scratch is easier than remembering anything.

I've not seen that many people claiming to know the ritu-sen-poi, byzantine scale and hungarian gypsy be able to extemporise anything that didn't sound like painting by numbers... but worse was in denial about the noddy clockworkness of the music created.

I'll listen to soundcloud when I can

octatonic · March 2014

frankus said:

Eric Roche said "Head, Hand and Heart all have to be working in unison" ... or something like that... and he might have borrowed it from Fritz Lang... but there's no point learning theory you'll never use.

Pretty sure he stole that from Fripp.

Or it was the other way around.

frankus · March 2014

Fripp doesn't predate Fritz Lang ... anyway they stole it ergo they're artists...

imalrightjack · March 2014

frankus said:

I've not seen that many people claiming to know the ritu-sen-poi, byzantine scale and hungarian gypsy be able to extemporise anything that didn't sound like painting by numbers... but worse was in denial about the noddy clockworkness of the music created.

That's a fair point! I'd actually quite like to delve into jazz more and am working through Jody Fisher's 'complete' book. It's certainly helping my understanding generally and I'm happy with my tiny increments of progress. I'm nearly 40, have no intention of going pro (I wish!), so it's really not essential that I learn one more thing. I just don't want to stand still forever. I wish I'd learned half of what I've learned in the last five years 25 years ago!

matt1973 · March 2014

I just saw a post from a guy who was struggling a bit and tried as best I could to help the fella. Now I'm thinking about all the shit I'm avoiding.

imalrightjack · March 2014

matt1973 said:

I just saw a post from a guy who was struggling a bit and tried as best I could to help the fella. Now I'm thinking about all the shit I'm avoiding.

What do you mean?

frankus · March 2014

As Oct has said, transcription (although Fripp said it first).

It's not even stealing - lift a lick you like and you'll bounce it about and make something utterly different from it. rhythm, placement in the bar... all those things change it... people learn that from transcription.

It's no different to Chess players studying the matches of grandmasters. They do this in order to better understand the games ... compare that to music ... it's the songs... the scales are simply the rules like how a knight moves and they deserve no more reverence than that because in music there are no rules just tastes. So find the "grandmasters" who's taste you like and understand their game.

Now, a study in 1971 set out to test memory, chess players and non-chess players were given 5 minutes to memorise a board from a game.... who was better? the chess players.. when the boards presented to the two sets were of random arrangements of the chessboards... who remembered better? There wasn't any difference... the action of chunking is recording snapshots of familiarity - in a non-chess player the biggest chunk was a piece... whereas for an average chess player it was 4 times that. Grandmasters recall entire boards... fragments remind them of different games at different stages.

To my mind, songs are the same. Scales are largely irrelevant, in Jazz where the chords change often thinking (let alone in scales) means death. You need chunks, scales can provide that...yes, but they'll also give a lot of dead ends (99% are dead ends), where as understanding the tunes and snippets you love (using a very few scales) helps.

In any improv environment, you are not learning, you're manifesting what you know, licks give you that: scales do not - they give a framework to fuck up from. A player is zoning in on what will sound good and what better way than by starting out with what you know? Musically the best stuff we listen to hangs off what we know - if it surprises us it is from what we expect... scales don't have that cultural context... it'd be like writing a book knowing the alphabet but not the writing style of your favourite people, it's like having a dictionary but not knowing how to pronounce the words or which ones have fallen from use.

Over systemisation. T-Bone Walker played a lot of chord tones and used a major ninth to sweeten the melody... some dufus crunched it down to the pentatonic scales. Blues isn't pentatonics, that was a mistake - some people can use a broken system and apply it - other people try too much to apply it to everything.

Work out the magic of a few magical songs... dare to look up the skirts of a few solos and demystify it. I think a lot of people parroting the virtue of scales are simply echoing the mystification that sent them off down that cul de sac.

GuyBoden · March 2014

Unfortunately, a lot of musicians need to sell music theory books, courses, dvds etc to make money, because of the lack of good paying gigs.

Ears are the answer.

matt1973 · March 2014

frankus said:
Theory attracts people who for whatever reason aren't all that fussed about "hand" or "heart" ... and avoidant people (might be one and the same) are attracted to the internet... take me for instance, in life I'm a red setter but I come here to pretend to be something other than I am and avoid having a wet nose jammed in my hoop as a "how do ya do". Seriously I'm a dog with a big keyboard..

Avoidant people are attracted to the internet. It's got me thinking.

frankus · March 2014

don't take it too seriously, unless itleads to happiness.

GuyBoden · March 2014

TAB has been been one of the biggest problems, because TAB doesn't train your ears, it trains your eyes.

frankus · March 2014

tabs not the problem - it's probably where the staves came from... it's squirrels, squirrels are the problem.

Global warming? Squirrels
Recession? Squirrels
Reduction of habitat of the Eurasian squirrel? Squirrels. Red squirrels are the overlords, the squirrel civil war is spiralling out of control.

I might be a conspiracy theorist but Squirrels shot JFK ... look on the grassy knoll what are there? trees.

Russel T Davis's success is entirely down a misunderstanding, if he hadn't said "I love nuts" he'd have been backed by a consortium of foxes thinking "he's a bit thick, all the good eating is on the hen" ...

but I digress. The whichness of where and the whyness of what is utterly redundant in music, unless you're making a documentary for TV land... but if you're making music as GuyBoden says "ears" make more use of them.

octatonic · March 2014

frankus said:

tabs not the problem - it's probably where the staves came from...

It is.

There are a lot of examples of early musical notation that show a certain crossover between stave notation and tab.

Have a look at Monteverdi's L'Orfeo here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Orfeo_libretto_prologue.jpg

There are earlier examples that are even better but that is the one that comes to mind.

octatonic · March 2014

Here is another one:

http://d29ci68ykuu27r.cloudfront.net/product/Look-Inside/large/18458087_01.jpg

GuyBoden · March 2014

I can't hear written music, can you?

octatonic · March 2014

GuyBoden said:

I can't hear written music, can you?

Yes, I can.

I can't sing it however, at least not very well.

Tunez · March 2014

Theory attracts people who for whatever reason aren't all that fussed about "hand" or "heart" ... and avoidant people (might be one and the same) are attracted to the internet... take me for instance, in life I'm a red setter but I come here to pretend to be something other than I am and avoid having a wet nose jammed in my hoop as a "how do ya do". Seriously I'm a dog with a big keyboard..

To my mind you're playing about with modulation, the sus backdoors it a bit... ultimately there are only 12 notes and 4 chords... loop it play each note over each chord, sort them into order. See if the sus makes that much difference...

I've grown to disregard theory as a means of approach because creating the whole thing from scratch is easier than remembering anything.

I've not seen that many people claiming to know the ritu-sen-poi, byzantine scale and hungarian gypsy be able to extemporise anything that didn't sound like painting by numbers... but worse was in denial about the noddy clockworkness of the music created.

I think guitarists must be the only skilled group of people with such a sizeable, vocal percentage within their number who pathologically embrace ignorance. Many of these even going to the lengths of despising any understanding of the mechanisms of their own art, then congratulating themselves on the near miss of learning something about music. It's their assertion, as here, that knowledge and understanding somehow demeans their expression. This attitude is unique to our number, no serious musicians of any other instrument ever make such preposterous assertions. Quite the contrary, they all embrace study with open arms in the hope that any new book, study, perspective or philosophy might offer them even a glimmer of a new and, as yet, unchartered territory.

I commend the OP for his question and all the people who offered some insights into the fruits of their studies to help him.

If you needed evidence to convince you of the astronomical level of creativity and expression emerging from great, extremely well schooled musicians, simply turn your ears in any direction you like, any genre, any time through history.

I will never assert that unschooled musicians are incapable of expression and I think it's ridiculous to assert that a schooled musician, by virtue of his study, has somehow castrated his mojo…

jus' sayin'.

Tunez · March 2014

GuyBoden said:

TAB has been also been one of the biggest problems, because TAB doesn't train your ears, it trains your eyes.

Completely agree. Tab is a useless cul-de-sac, even, a barrier to more thorough understanding.

frankus · March 2014

Tunez said:

Theory attracts people who for whatever reason aren't all that fussed about "hand" or "heart" ... and avoidant people (might be one and the same) are attracted to the internet... take me for instance, in life I'm a red setter but I come here to pretend to be something other than I am and avoid having a wet nose jammed in my hoop as a "how do ya do". Seriously I'm a dog with a big keyboard..

To my mind you're playing about with modulation, the sus backdoors it a bit... ultimately there are only 12 notes and 4 chords... loop it play each note over each chord, sort them into order. See if the sus makes that much difference...

I've grown to disregard theory as a means of approach because creating the whole thing from scratch is easier than remembering anything.

I've not seen that many people claiming to know the ritu-sen-poi, byzantine scale and hungarian gypsy be able to extemporise anything that didn't sound like painting by numbers... but worse was in denial about the noddy clockworkness of the music created.

I think guitarists must be the only skilled group of people with such a sizeable, vocal percentage within their number who pathologically embrace ignorance

You are confabulating - you interpret a world view different to yours as ignorance - what is it ignoring?

. Many of these even going to the lengths of despising any understanding of the mechanisms of their own art, then congratulating themselves on the near miss of learning something about music.

You're globalising deary - how many guitarists do you know to talk to?

It's their assertion, as here, that knowledge and understanding somehow demeans their expression.

Again this is your assertion - I am glad I've rattled your cage... maybe the doors open, now.

Knowledge is good, practical knowledge is better and application is king.

This attitude is unique to our number, no serious musicians of any other instrument ever make such preposterous assertions.

Do you know many harmonica, folk violinists or pianists?

Some harmonica players don't know why they play an F harp when playing over tunes written in the key of C.

Folk Violinists are musically literate but defer to flyshit at all times.

Pianists aren't taught about chords, simply harmony.

Quite the contrary, they all embrace study with open arms in the hope that any new book, study, perspective or philosophy might offer them even a glimmer of a new and, as yet, unchartered territory.

Now you're using complex equivalence "A = B therefore C = D" on top of presupposition! Wow - you are pissed off... or delusional.

I commend the OP for his question and all the people who offered some insights into the fruits of their studies to help him.

And you tell us this why?

If you needed evidence to convince you of the astronomical level of creativity and expression emerging from great, extremely well schooled musicians, simply turn your ears in any direction you like, any genre, any time through history.

Music is not a product of education. Musical theory is a means of communication with other musicians, so give all this Cambridge Don bluster a rest, eh?

I will never assert that unschooled musicians are incapable of expression and I think it's ridiculous to assert that a schooled musician, by virtue of his study, has somehow castrated his mojo…

Noone said it does. It does, for a time... any acquired skill needs time to become internalised and if not honed in this way THROUGH EXPERIENCE is meaningless.

jus' sayin'.

not much

frankus · March 2014

GuyBoden said:

I can't hear written music, can you?

If I hold it really close to my ear I can

GuyBoden · March 2014

frankus said:

GuyBoden said:

I can't hear written music, can you?

If I hold it really close to my ear I can

Yes, it's happening for me too, I just needed to concentrate..................................
[-O<

Cirrus · March 2014

GuyBoden;196215" said:
I can't hear written music, can you?

One of my lecturers at uni would read scores in bed and get as much enjoyment out of the performance he heard in his head as he would from listening to a recording. Absolutely amazing and so far beyond my comprehension I consider it a form of magic.

Tunez · March 2014

--

frankus · March 2014

Cirrus said:

One of my lecturers at uni would read scores in bed and get as much enjoyment out of the performance he heard in his head as he would from listening to a recording.

how do you know what one of your lecturers did in bed?

frankus · March 2014

Tunez said:

Wow, I see why you are against study.

So you can see I'm against something I'm not against? Impressive.

That was sarcasm by the way.

Cirrus · March 2014

frankus said:

Cirrus said:

One of my lecturers at uni would read scores in bed and get as much enjoyment out of the performance he heard in his head as he would from listening to a recording.

how do you know what one of your lecturers did in bed?

Because each night he spurned me was etched into my soul.

And he told the class he read scores in bed without seeming to understand that this wasn't a normal thing to do.

frankus · March 2014

Do you reckon on Friday nights he'd read scores involving a lot of ostinato and flute solos... how do you show wah-wah using notation

... a lot of accent on the one... I mean porn soundtracks

Clarky · April 2014

a few thoughts re soloing over the A and then to the C. Clearly both chords are in different keys and as such they each have their own sets of scale / mode possibilities. What would make me choose one set over another would be context.

if the vibe was bluesy / classic rock [and provided that there were no G# notes knocking around from other instruments / voclas], then I'd probably consider the A to be an A7 [even if the 7th was not sounding. This would open up A mixolydian. The A mixo would in turn open up Am pentatonic as it' blue pentatonic'. The C# in the A chord vs the C in the pentatonic would of course clash.. however, you'd be mindful that when you play the C from the scale, give it a little bend towards the C#. The bend can even not quite get there [a micro-tone bend], but as it is heading in the direction of C# it'll be enough to de-emphasise the C / C# clash. Personally I'd most likely be playing licks that switch between A mixo, Am penta [blue], Amaj penta and Dmaj penta. The reason this works is cos you're mixing it up and not simply sticking to one tonality for the entire time the chord is sounding.

if this were a different more melodic context I'd me more inclined to be largely diatonic to the centre key [in this case A mixo]. Note though that Amixo and Cmaj share many notes. Knowing what these are can help with the transition.. for example.. when the A chord sounds, bend D to E a few beats before the transition to C. Leaving hanging there as the chord changes to C. The note E is also in the key of C so your bend will remain consonant through out the transition. Think of it as a pivot note [a note shared between the key of origin and the target key]. lil' tricks like this can make for some very nice transitions..

imalrightjack · June 2014

This is what I've ended up playing:

http://m.soundcloud.com/nosoapnoradio/where-to-begin

Bellycaster · June 2014

imalrightjack said:

This is what I've ended up playing:

http://m.soundcloud.com/nosoapnoradio/where-to-begin

I thought it was good, nice one.

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Soloing over A major to C major?

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