Turnstone at the Guitar Show 2018

TheBigDipper · February 2018

If you're going to the show today, pop up to the Acoustic floor and visit Rosie at Turnstone. I tried out a 12 fret small body yesterday and it was glorious. Pretty to look at, played like a dream, balanced tone and a small port in the small upper bout so the player gets to hear it as well as the other people in the room. As I was playing it, the (understandably) proud owner introduced himself, too.

Lovely guitar.

ourmaninthenorth · February 2018

TheBigDipper said:

If you're going to the show today, pop up to the Acoustic floor and visit Rosie at Turnstone. I tried out a 12 fret small body yesterday and it was glorious. Pretty to look at, played like a dream, balanced tone and a small port in the small upper bout so the player gets to hear it as well as the other people in the room. As I was playing it, the (understandably) proud owner introduced himself, too.

Lovely guitar.

I've played a few of Rosie's masterpieces. I don't over use that word or indeed use it lightly. Her guitars are simply astonishing.

Have you seen that internal bracing....it's utterly unbelievable.

crunchman · February 2018

Didn't get to go this year, but they looked stunning when I went last year.

ourmaninthenorth · February 2018

Don't understand the physics of this bracing...but I do know it sounds unbelievable, and looks, well judge for yourself...

Image: https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-14638383/images/56c9dc7114279wjlOMFO/IMG_7564_d1450.jpg

TheBigDipper · February 2018

ourmaninthenorth said:

Don't understand the physics of this bracing...but I do know it sounds unbelievable, and looks, well judge for yourself...

I've never seen anything quite like this before. I don't understand it either - and I think it would take away a little piece of magic if I did. Thanks for posting it, though.

ourmaninthenorth · February 2018

TheBigDipper said:

ourmaninthenorth said:

Don't understand the physics of this bracing...but I do know it sounds unbelievable, and looks, well judge for yourself...

I've never seen anything quite like this before. I don't understand it either - and I think it would take away a little piece of magic if I did. Thanks for posting it, though.

I don't think those ports are for sound, I think they're a viewing gallery...next time you play one have a look through it...I spent more time gawping at the artistry inside than I did playing the buggers.

Fantastic guitars...no question.

crunchman · February 2018

Never seen the insides before. That bracing should add stiffness without adding weight.

CHRISB50 · February 2018

I'd love to play one.

The instuments look and sound amazing.

Nice website too which makes a nice change for a one (wo)man operation.

mrkb · February 2018

ourmaninthenorth said:

Don't understand the physics of this bracing...but I do know it sounds unbelievable, and looks, well judge for yourself...

Hmm, don't think that's based on physics, more art/style based.... It worked for Da Vinci though!

CloudNine · February 2018

Agreed, all looks slightly unnecessary to be honest.. The bracing is ultimately wood of a certain weight and stiffness, and I do not buy into the fact that it needs to be those fancy shapes with weight relieved areas, to achieve the desired tonal outcome.

Actually looks like quite a bit of wood, all in all with all those braces, but hard to tell with the perspective etc.

I don't doubt they sound great, but I really doubt it is because of those fancy shapes.

ourmaninthenorth · February 2018

Have a listen to how they sound...I've played this very guitar. The video doesn't quite capture how good I thought it was...

https://youtu.be/jwMGd2c65fM

ArchtopDave · February 2018

ourmaninthenorth said:

Have a listen to how they sound...I've played this very guitar. The video doesn't quite capture how good I thought it was...

https://youtu.be/jwMGd2c65fM

I had a go on it as well at the Guitar Show last year. Really beautiful guitar in terms of sound, playability, and looks. It still makes me think about getting Rosie to make one for me.

CloudNine · March 2018

Sounds like a nice guitar. I am not personally into the more modern sounding guitars that a lot of the single luthiers seem to produce these days, more in the vintage American sounding camp, so I am not really the target audience. Sounds good though, particularly nice on the single note stuff that was played.

Still not changed my mind about the bracing though. Can't help feeling it's style over substance, but happy to be proved wrong if someone can explain why these fancy shapes carry any benefits over a more regular shaped brace of the same material carved to a specific weight and stiffness.

interstellar · March 2018

the bracing sure draws attention to the builder and her guitars though! no doubt they sound great

Winny_Pooh · March 2018

Not all the bracing looks like that lately.

Rosie is building "E" series guitars using woods that are all native to England.

interstellar · March 2018

I think she used the elaborate bracing very cleverly as a way to really stand out, good move

Lewy · March 2018

I'm very comfortable with the idea that an instrument for creating art may have elements of style over substance in its design. The scroll on a violin peghead doesn't do much either.

CloudNine · March 2018

Not sure how you can make a comparison with the violin peghead scroll.. That is clearly a decorative element, nobody would ever think that it is related to, or designed to influence, the tone. The shaping of bracing inside a guitar, would lead most people to believe that it is somehow related to 'tonal shaping' also, as that is one of the key ares where you make changes that affect the sound of a guitar.

At the start of the thread, there seemed to be some wonder at the magic of these shapes, my view is that there is no magic.

I defo like the idea of the all UK wood builds. Nearly did a custom order with the same idea a few years back, but went a different direction in the end. Definitely would consider something along those lines in future.

Always good to see some new young U.K. based acoustic builders. Hard road for most to make it pay, seems to depend on hype, so I admire anyone trying.

CountryDave · March 2018

I remember reading an interview with an older luthier (might have been Wayne Henderson) who said something along the lines of he ensures the insides of his guitars are all smoothly finished to allow the air to pass uninterrupted.

As for the ones above, even if they do nothing other than add a nice view, they are gorgeous.

ourmaninthenorth · March 2018

Here's some quotes from the Lady herself, with the rationale for the bracing...I'm frankly not competent enough to critically assess what's being aimed at, but I think it's interesting nonetheless to include it in this discussion...

"..... So...I know all this bracing will look pretty unusual to most, but in a nutshell my approach is to essentially divide my soundboard into a bass side and a treble side and dedicate each side to what I believe will best optimise treble frequencies on treble string side and bass frequencies on the bass string side. This is a slightly new design that I am trialling, with tweaks added based on knowledge gained from previous builds. So you will see the bracing is much lower, lighter and rounder on the bass side and much narrower, higher, sharper and more rigid on the treble side. The varying wood species used, as well as being considered for their densities (linked to the optimisation thing), introduce a more varied 'timbre' to the overall sound. There's quite a bit more to it all on top of this, but I can get carried away and usually see peoples eyes slowly glaze over... but let me know if you have any specific questions, I will be happy to try and answer them! The soundboard has been formed to a 25ft radius on the braces and all are stuck down with Titebond glue. The majority of the brace shaping was done with a chisel (I think I'm going to look into a little thumb plane too for future builds) and then all the braces are sanded through to 320grit.... "

_______________________________________________________________

".....in general terms, the bracing affects tone because as well as providing the much needed structural support for a very thin soundboard under high string tension, they also help to distribute the vibrations delivered into the bridge from the strings around the rest of the soundboard. The way braces are shaped, their proportions and their densities will denote how these vibrations travel through them and into the soundboard and will therefore affect the overall tone emitted. The skill of all makers is to find a formula that works for them to excite the soundboard as much as possible, keep it structurally in tact and deliver the desired tone. It's quite a lot to consider when you think about it!..... "

__________________________________________________________________

"..... There is a fair amount of detail in why each brace is shaped exactly the way that it is, but I will try to explain what I am trying to achieve with the tone overall. Also just to add an important point here too that this is just one piece of the tone puzzle and there are many other aspects to the guitar build that can affect the tone as well.

So as briefly explained in my first bracing post, there is specific bracing on the treble side of the lower bout that has been designed to optimize treble frequencies. You see the bracing is light, but there is more of it and it is relatively high and some of the braces are made out of hardwood. The general point of doing all this is to make this area of the soundboard a bit more rigid. This increased rigidity, but done in a carefully considered way, is implemented with the hope of obtaining nice clear and defined treble tones. There is a fair amount of detail about why increased rigidity done in this way would achieve this, but the basics are derived from the physical principles of higher frequency sound waves, sound vibration and how these waves travels through materials.

On the bass side the bracing is very light because if you imagine a drum skin (although appreciate vibration excitation in drums is slightly different) - to a certain extent - the bigger the surface area is and the more it is allowed to move, the deeper and more sustained the vibrations will become, so the hope with this side is to achieve well rounded, long sustaining bass.

Obviously when any string is excited the whole soundboard will vibrate, you can’t tell the guitar which side of the soundboard to direct its energy to, but you can to a certain extent manipulate what resonates on it. The aim of having these defined areas is to manipulate as much as is possible the desired tone of the guitar, so to answer your question in the most long-winded way ever, the aim of this bracing is to be able to change it around depending on what the player wants! You can tailor it to be a brighter guitar or a bassier guitar depending on who it is built for and what type of music might be played on it. This one in particular is a show stock model so I am trialing a few new things to see the results, but overall it aims to be as balanced as possible with nice long sustaining bass, but crisp, clear trebles to match.

Again though, I can’t emphasize enough how this is just one piece of a much larger puzzle! But I hope that goes to answer your question a little way..... "

( Source: Rosie Heydenrych - The Acoustic SoundBoard Forum....March 2016 )

TheBigDipper · March 2018

CloudNine said:

<snip>

At the start of the thread, there seemed to be some wonder at the magic of these shapes, my view is that there is no magic.
<snip>

If you mean my post, it was just a metaphor - and obviously so (I thought) as I don't believe in magic either and therefore it cannot be applied literally to the physics of guitar top bracing designs.

The peghead scroll on a violin, though, well... Is it really useless and only decorative? Don't we know of people who maintain that size and mass of a guitar headstock affects tone and sustain?

CloudNine · March 2018

Erm yes, I was also using your metaphor, in the same way, not sure what your point is really...

Anyway, yes different headstock shapes and sizes will no doubt have some impact on tone. The point being made here is about 'intent'.

So, do you think the violin scroll shape was 'intended' to shape tone?

I doubt you believe that, any more than you believe in magic.

ourmaninthenorth · March 2018

I think you're in the clear @TheBigDipper , I brought the bracing up...and I do believe in magic, so do my ears.

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Turnstone at the Guitar Show 2018

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