Electrification of acoustics - advice please

Kalimna · January 2018

Greetings folks, and apologies for digging up this old nugget. I have a couple of acoustics (old Sigma 12-string, Brook Tavy and Built-at-Baileys dreadnought), none of which have a pickup in them.

I would now like the ability to amplify them, I understand that the K&K Mini is highly regarded, but is limited to install it once and never again. So, what is the current thinking on soundhole pickups? I would like something that can be transferred between guitars rather than a permanent installation.

I do not, as yet, have a dedicated acoustic amplifier, but wondered if the Blackstar TVP would suffice?

Also, is it necessary to have an acoustic pre-amp, or do you just plug straight into the amplifier?

Thanks for any advice,

Adam

ICBM · January 2018

Soundhole pickups are quite decent and if you're going into an electric guitar amp, probably better than a piezo-based system.

The Blackstar will work, if you set it to the brightest and deepest clean sound, cut most or all of the mids (use the ISF to fine-tune it to what sounds best by ear), and boost the treble. It won't be ideal but it will at least get into the right ballpark.

If you get a soundhole pickup with a built-in preamp - eg the Fishman Rare Earth Active, or the LR Baggs M1A - then you don't need an external preamp. If you get a passive one you may do - although probably less so for going into the Blackstar than if you want to go into the PA at a gig.

None of this is going to give you a studio-quality acoustic sound and won't be very good for recording, but it will give you a usable amplified sound for small gigs or running effects with at home.

I have to admit to liking doing things 'wrong' like this, it usually sounds more interesting and in some ways better than the standard piezo pickup into a full-range PA sound that has become accepted as an 'acoustic guitar sound'.

Kalimna · January 2018

Thanks ICBM - to be honest I am after something that will sound reasonable and allow amplification. If I ever get to recording something, then I can worry about studio-quality then

What, then, would you recommend as a good soundhole pickup? Or would the Fishman and LR Baggs you mentioned be top of the list?

Cheers,

Adam

AliGorie · January 2018

Kalimna said:

I understand that the K&K Mini is highly regarded, but is limited to install it once and never again.
Adam

not true Adam, I have a KK in one of my guitars for over 10 yre it's stuck on with quality (thin) 3M high tack double sided tape - works just fine.

ICBM · January 2018

Kalimna said:
What, then, would you recommend as a good soundhole pickup? Or would the Fishman and LR Baggs you mentioned be top of the list?

I like the Fishman best. The Baggs is OK and seems popular but I found it harsher-sounding. I haven't tried any others, to be honest! I did have a passive Duncan Woody, but probably the less said about that the better...

crunchman · January 2018

I'd be wary of sound hole pickups. They seem to adversely affect the vibration of the top and acoustic tone of the guitar. I had couple of acoustics that definitely didn't seem to sound quite as good after putting a soundhole pickup in. I seem to remember @gassage taking one out of a guitar and it sounding a lot better afterwards. I did search but can't find the thread.

If you are doing a permanent installation I'd get a K&K, or a basic undersaddle with some kind of external preamp. Also, the plugged in sound from a K&K is better than a soundhole pickup in my experience.

Kalimna · January 2018

AliGorie - Interesting, as I was under the impression that a cyanoacrylate is used to place the transducers. If using double sided film, then potential for removing relatively easily.

Crunchman - When I get around to a permanent installation, the K&K is top of my list. But in this instance I am looking for something easily transferrable between guitars. Unfortunately, I would have to accept any decrease in sound quality.

Cheers,

Adam

BintyTwanger77 · January 2018

The Fishman Sonotone is a good pickup: got one on my Guild OM140E and it sounds great.

Gassage · January 2018

crunchman said:

I'd be wary of sound hole pickups. They seem to adversely affect the vibration of the top and acoustic tone of the guitar. I had couple of acoustics that definitely didn't seem to sound quite as good after putting a soundhole pickup in. I seem to remember @gassage taking one out of a guitar and it sounding a lot better afterwards. I did search but can't find the thread.
If you are doing a permanent installation I'd get a K&K, or a basic undersaddle with some kind of external preamp. Also, the plugged in sound from a K&K is better than a soundhole pickup in my experience.

100%. It was an 00028EC and it stopped the top moving properly as acted like a brace.

AliGorie · January 2018

Kalimna said:

AliGorie - Interesting, as I was under the impression that a cyanoacrylate is used to place the transducers. If using double sided film, then potential for removing relatively easily.
Adam

to clarify, I installed it in my Lowden which was at the time my only (good) guitar, I put it in to gig with and as you may know Lowdies are pinless bridges and to be sure I was getting the positioning right and the best sound from it I used DS tape - it's been in there since the late '90's audience members have said they liked the (more) acoustic sound rather than the more then common piezo quack. Doubtless it may sound better super glued in but hey - I just wanted to get on with playing the musicand if the musics good - that's what they'll hear.

Stuckfast · January 2018

I have a Sunrise in mine, which can be transferred if needs be, though I wouldn't call the process easy. It's quite a big heavy lump but doesn't seem to adversely affect the sound too much (or maybe I've just forgotten what the guitar sounded like without it). They sound good but are not too easy to get hold of, and pricey new.

Single-coil magnetics tend to sound a bit more 'acoustic-y' than humbuckers, but they are VERY prone to picking up hums and buzzes.

menamestom · January 2018

crunchman said:

I'd be wary of sound hole pickups. They seem to adversely affect the vibration of the top and acoustic tone of the guitar.

I agree, bt that could be a good thing on a loud stage. I think of soundhole pickups as the 'band' option.
Perhaps K&K more for lower volume duties, although to be fair you can at least fit in a complete sound hole feedback buster.

crunchman · January 2018

menamestom said:

crunchman said:

I'd be wary of sound hole pickups. They seem to adversely affect the vibration of the top and acoustic tone of the guitar.

I agree, bt that could be a good thing on a loud stage. I think of soundhole pickups as the 'band' option.
Perhaps K&K more for lower volume duties, although to be fair you can at least fit in a complete sound hole feedback buster.

I've not had feedback issues with the K&K I have in one of my guitars, but if you are worried about feedback I'd rather have an undersaddle than a soundhole pickup. Based on my experience, an undersaddle with something like a TC Bodyrez to get rid of some of that piezo quack sounds better than a soundhole pickup.

Phil_aka_Pip · January 2018

Seymour Duncan Woody = low output (ie require separate preamp) and IMO lacking in treble as well. Tried it, gave up with it.

BigLicks67 · January 2018

Kalimna said:

AliGorie - Interesting, as I was under the impression that a cyanoacrylate is used to place the transducers. If using double sided film, then potential for removing relatively easily.

There's a section on the K&K website which has a pdf with installation instructions. Apparently double sided tape is supplied with the pick up, but according to K&K this leads to a 30% loss of tone/volume in comparison to superglue.

http://kksound.com/pdf/puremini.pdf

I remember looking at this option when I was thinking about changing Fishman 322 pickup in my D28.

I'd imagine you'd need a pre amp to go with the pure mini. Which will make it more expensive than the Fishman Rare Earth.

crunchman · January 2018

BigLicks67 said:

I'd imagine you'd need a pre amp to go with the pure mini. Which will make it more expensive than the Fishman Rare Earth.

I've gone straight into a PA via an active DI box using a K&K Pure Mini - exactly the same as I would with any other pickup. You need to set the gain a little higher on the desk, but it's been usable and hasn't fed back.

Edit: I've also used it straight into a Fishman Loudbox Mini without a preamp. Easily enough signal to make that work.

BigLicks67 · January 2018

crunchman said:

BigLicks67 said:

I'd imagine you'd need a pre amp to go with the pure mini. Which will make it more expensive than the Fishman Rare Earth.

I've gone straight into a PA via an active DI box using a K&K Pure Mini - exactly the same as I would with any other pickup. You need to set the gain a little higher on the desk, but it's been usable and hasn't fed back.
Edit: I've also used it straight into a Fishman Loudbox Mini without a preamp. Easily enough signal to make that work.

Fair enough, I thought the 30% drop off in volume would have brought a requirement for a preamp.
I can use my 322 under saddle pickup into an amp with no problem, so I was thinking more for PA.

ICBM · January 2018

BigLicks67 said:

There's a section on the K&K website which has a pdf with installation instructions. Apparently double sided tape is supplied with the pick up, but according to K&K this leads to a 30% loss of tone/volume in comparison to superglue.

I must admit I would never install it with tape. It's as good as permanent anyway, if the tape isn't crap stuff that will fall off in a year or two, and if there's also a tone/volume loss associated with it I would just do it with glue.

BigLicks67 said:

I'd imagine you'd need a pre amp to go with the pure mini. Which will make it more expensive than the Fishman Rare Earth.

No, it's fine without. It's much less prone to load impedance problems than an undersaddle transducer - at least when glued on. It will happily drive a 1M input (which most amps and DI boxes have, at least) and doesn't sound thin and scratchy if you do load it too much.

AliGorie · January 2018

all my 'acoustic transducers' go through this -

Image: http://tonereport.com/uploads/img/TCe.jpg

ICBM · January 2018

AliGorie said:

all my 'acoustic transducers' go through this -

[TC Electronic Dual Parametric EQ]

Aha! When TC made good stuff

.

AliGorie · January 2018

yeah, great wee box, 1MOhm input as well.
the Lowdens (L25) body resonance is low F# / G so just dial it into the TC and yer feedback free.

ToneControl · January 2018

Bear in mind that big heavy soundhole-mounted pickups will affect the acoustic tone of the guitar (a load of extra mass that will damp the movement of the soundboard) - so not ideal for a top-notch acoustic that you only plug in occasionally

AliGorie · January 2018

there is a workround for soundhole magnetic p/u's if weight / immovability is a concern, I did this on a guitar I used for a short time with the Fishy Rare Earth Blend - Instead of 'hard wiring' the p/up & mic assembly to the jack socket in the tail block, simply add a quality (shielded) mini 3.5 mm jack on the lead coming from the p/up and a female socket on a lead coming from the end jack, the Fishy is simply secured to the soundhole by two easily accessible screws.
Slacken 3 strings, unplug the mini jack, undo the Philips screws - take out the p/up and your good to go acoustic on yer sofa.
Oh, I had a small plastic bracket d/s taped to inside of the upper side waist curve to secure the mini f/m jack.
10 minuets to install / uninstall before or after gig.
hope this makes sense.

TAMCO · January 2018

We've fitted the K&K Mini and other products from their line up and they are excellent.

On my personal guitars I have LR Baggs Anthems and I love them too.

www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk

crunchman · January 2018

TAMCO said:

We've fitted the K&K Mini and other products from their line up and they are excellent.

On my personal guitars I have LR Baggs Anthems and I love them too.

www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk

Not tried the Baggs. On various different guitars over the years, I've had Headway undersaddle, K&K Pure Mini, Fishman Rare Earth, Fishman undersaddle, and Fishman Ellipse blender (undersaddle plus gooseneck mic that you can mix together).

In terms of sound quality, the blender with the combination of undersaddle and mic is the best. That's very expensive though - would probably cost around £250 fitted. I probably wouldn't have gone out and bought it, but it came factory fitted with that guitar.

Of the less expensive ones, the K&K is definitely the best sounding.

TAMCO · January 2018

We agree that a mic plus under-saddle is a good solution.

www.theacousticmusicco.co.uk

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Electrification of acoustics - advice please

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