I went to a Bluegrass jam...

TimmyO · November 2017

... last night. Only one for miles around but luckily not too far away (just across town). Only went to watch and took my tame bassist friend along for moral support.

It's the first time I've been to anything like this - it was *such* a cool vibe - was about 7 of them there on this occasion, all bar 2 of them had multiple instruments they dabbled with (guitar/fiddle, banjo/harmonica, banjo/fiddle etc) and - a couple were clearly *very* fine players indeed, the others all very good too though, and one old boy who could sing harmony to anything.

I chatted with a couple of them and they seem very welcoming so I may take an instrument along soon and just sit mostly quietly and join in where I can.

some observations:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)
2. Fiddles are fucking loud in comparison.
3. There is no PA and amp lugging in this genre!

They were particularly interested if I could play Mando as they don't have one.
I own a Mando but can't play it properly but this has given me the incentive.

Anyone else do Bluegrass now or in the past? (I know @Lewy has certainly... )

BigLicks67 · November 2017

I attempt it from time to time, but I need to learn some more tunes, I've never attended anything like above, because quite frankly I don't have the chops or a sound enough knowledge of the music. I suppose they are similar to a traditional session.

VimFuego · November 2017

went to one a few times when I lived in herts, and once since being down here (which has now ceased). The one in herts consisted of mostly banjos and guitars, no mandos and I think a fiddle, but it was quite large. Guitars were rhythm only, which is also pretty much what is expected of them at folk sessions IME (and at least at bluegrass sessions you're only competing with fiddles and banjos, try competing with about 6 squeezeboxes, those things are loud!!!).

stickyfiddle · November 2017

TimmyO said:

... last night. Only one for miles around but luckily not too far away (just across town). Only went to watch and took my tame bassist friend along for moral support.

It's the first time I've been to anything like this - it was *such* a cool vibe - was about 7 of them there on this occasion, all bar 2 of them had multiple instruments they dabbled with (guitar/fiddle, banjo/harmonica, banjo/fiddle etc) and - a couple were clearly *very* fine players indeed, the others all very good too though, and one old boy who could sing harmony to anything.

I chatted with a couple of them and they seem very welcoming so I may take an instrument along soon and just sit mostly quietly and join in where I can.

some observations:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)
2. Fiddles are fucking loud in comparison.
3. There is no PA and amp lugging in this genre!

They were particularly interested if I could play Mando as they don't have one.
I own a Mando but can't play it properly but this has given me the incentive.

Anyone else do Bluegrass now or in the past? (I know @Lewy has certainly... )

There's a reason bluegrass players almost all use dreadnoughts...

crunchman · November 2017

stickyfiddle said:

TimmyO said:

... last night. Only one for miles around but luckily not too far away (just across town). Only went to watch and took my tame bassist friend along for moral support.

It's the first time I've been to anything like this - it was *such* a cool vibe - was about 7 of them there on this occasion, all bar 2 of them had multiple instruments they dabbled with (guitar/fiddle, banjo/harmonica, banjo/fiddle etc) and - a couple were clearly *very* fine players indeed, the others all very good too though, and one old boy who could sing harmony to anything.

I chatted with a couple of them and they seem very welcoming so I may take an instrument along soon and just sit mostly quietly and join in where I can.

some observations:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)
2. Fiddles are fucking loud in comparison.
3. There is no PA and amp lugging in this genre!

They were particularly interested if I could play Mando as they don't have one.
I own a Mando but can't play it properly but this has given me the incentive.

Anyone else do Bluegrass now or in the past? (I know @Lewy has certainly... )

There's a reason bluegrass players almost all use dreadnoughts...

Not all dreadnoughts are equal though.

The Tuner app on my phone gives a dB value. I put it across the room, and my Martin was 3 or 4db louder (approximately double perceived volume) than another dread I used to have. Didn't sound louder to me when playing but it must project a lot better.

If you don't want to monstrously heavy strings then you probably want something with the pre-war style ("forward shifted") scalloped bracing as the tops are a lot more responsive.

Kilgore · November 2017

I was under the impression that a D28 was "the" Bluegrass guitar.

Bridgehouse · November 2017

If you do try Mando, you'll have the same projection and volume issue unless you've got a loud one of these:

TimmyO · November 2017

Bridgehouse said:

If you do try Mando, you'll have the same projection and volume issue unless you've got a loud one of these:

Googles
Faints at price lol

Bridgehouse · November 2017

TimmyO said:

Bridgehouse said:

If you do try Mando, you'll have the same projection and volume issue unless you've got a loud one of these:

Googles
Faints at price lol

Paul Shippey made it for me in 2008 - even then it was flipping expensive - I hate to think what they are now!!

DulcetJones · November 2017

Bluegrass is very prominent here in Canada, and Martin is the guitar of choice(don't know model names etc.). At the moment bluegrass is enjoying a bit of a resurgence in popularity, particularly the banjo. It's reached a point where I've been convinced by the music school I teach guitar at to learn banjo because we're getting more calls for banjo lessons all the time and currently don't have a banjo teacher. I don't own one but I live very close to the school, which is also a music store and the manager is letting me come in when there's a room open(most mornings) and use a stock banjo and instruction book. I'm working on the 5 string banjo and it's going pretty good. For practicing at home I have taken one of my solid body electrics and removed the top string, replaced the A string with an unwound G string and retuned the bottom E string to D. Instant 5 string banjo! At first I thought the top string would be a problem because on 5 string banjos it starts at the 5th fret, but, after browsing two instruction books I discovered that it only gets played as an open string(at least so far). The hardest part for me is getting my right hand fingerpicking patterns straight. I have a huge background in classical and flamenco guitar and the fingerpicking patterns for banjo are totally alien to me.

crunchman · November 2017

DulcetJones said:

The hardest part for me is getting my right hand fingerpicking patterns straight. I have a huge background in classical and flamenco guitar and the fingerpicking patterns for banjo are totally alien to me.

My wife bought me a banjo for my birthday a couple of years ago. I was watching Mumford and Sons on TV and their banjo player just used a plectrum guitar style. I think that might be easier. Probably not so good if you are teaching though, as they will want you to teach "proper" technique.

VimFuego · November 2017

think the chap in mumford plays a banjitar (banjo body but guitar neck and tuning) or mebbe a tenor banjo, which is basically a banjo body and tenor guitar neck and tuning.

DulcetJones · November 2017

crunchman said:

DulcetJones said:

The hardest part for me is getting my right hand fingerpicking patterns straight. I have a huge background in classical and flamenco guitar and the fingerpicking patterns for banjo are totally alien to me.

My wife bought me a banjo for my birthday a couple of years ago. I was watching Mumford and Sons on TV and their banjo player just used a plectrum guitar style. I think that might be easier. Probably not so good if you are teaching though, as they will want you to teach "proper" technique.

Yeah, I don't think I could get the speed required with a pick, all of the books I've seen say to use thumb, index and middle. What's throwing me off is with guitar the thumb almost always starts a picking pattern, but with banjo it's the index finger, followed by middle, then the thumb. On top of that an 1/8 note pattern in 4/4 ends on the middle finger and the next bar starts over with the index. I'm getting it but I have spent a lot of time playing simple passages over and over again with a metronome. And that's not the only pattern......

BigLicks67 · November 2017

Tenor Banjo is a 4 string shorter scale tuned CGDA or GDAE with heavier strings and is used in Irish Trad music a lot. They are loud like all banjos but whether you like the sound is another matter, I'd personally rather have a D28 all day long.

Lewy · November 2017

crunchman said:

If you don't want to monstrously heavy strings then you probably want something with the pre-war style ("forward shifted") scalloped bracing as the tops are a lot more responsive.

Everybody from 7 year olds to arthritic 80 year olds use 13-56 for bluegrass for the acoustic volume. They’re not monstrously heavy for the style because it’s 90% open position based.

ps. @crunchman - which tuner app has a dB meter? Would love to find out the relative loudness of my guitars as they vary a lot from the “driving seat”.

Jimbro66 · November 2017

TimmyO said:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)

You need one of these

http://atkinguitars.com/guitar/the-white-rice-relic/

D18s are often used because the mahogany construction lets them cut through a bit more than a rosewood D28.

I played dobro in a bluegrass band for 4 or 5 years and have played at hundreds of bluegrass jams. Banjo, fiddle and dobro are all louder than guitar and a mandolin cuts through well because of its higher frequencies. Guitar players can really struggle to be heard. At jams it needs the other instruments to back off when the guitar takes a solo. Unfortunately not all players are that considerate. Bluegrass guitarists also have to learn to dig in hard. I’ve been amazed at the volume really good players get from their guitars.

In a band context it’s not so much a problem because the traditional single-mic method allows players to move closer for their solo then back away.

wrinkleygit · November 2017

I have a pre Gibson dobro spidercone metal body, played with a pick in std tuning cuts thro easily in acoustic jams I think the dobro was origionaly designed to allow guitarists to be heard in "big band" gigs

BigLicks67 · November 2017

Jimbro66 said:

TimmyO said:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)

You need one of these

http://atkinguitars.com/guitar/the-white-rice-relic/

I wonder about these guitars with enlarged sound holes. The Yamaha LL series have larger sound holes and I've noticed if you hit the strings hard then they begin exhibit harsh metallic overtones. So you might get power but not necessarily a good tone.

TimmyO · November 2017

BigLicks67 said:

Jimbro66 said:

TimmyO said:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)

You need one of these

http://atkinguitars.com/guitar/the-white-rice-relic/

I wonder about these guitars with enlarged sound holes. The Yamaha LL series have larger sound holes and I've noticed if you hit the strings hard then they begin exhibit harsh metallic overtones. So you might get power but not necessarily a good tone.

That's really interesting - it was the one criticism I had of my LL16 - played softly it was fantastic, the string spacing and playability were fantastic, but if you hit those plain strings hard with a plectrum there was something odd about the sound that made me wince a bit - it wasn't the sort of thing that was apparent in softer playing, or indeed all of the time, but once I heard it I couldn't un-hear it.

That said, we're on speculating here that the soundhole size is the factor. I doubt Atkin would get away with it...

VimFuego · November 2017

Greg Russel (of Greg Russel and CIaran ALgar fame, sure you've all heard of them) plays an atkin with an enlarged hole (oo er missus) and he often really belts it. Not noticed any harshness or unusual tone. If funds ever allow, I'd love an Atkin.

BigLicks67 · November 2017

TimmyO said:

BigLicks67 said:

Jimbro66 said:

TimmyO said:

1. The guitars are the poor cousin - sometimes barely audible if the others didn't back off enough. What is the loudest guitar on the market... ? :-)

You need one of these

http://atkinguitars.com/guitar/the-white-rice-relic/

I wonder about these guitars with enlarged sound holes. The Yamaha LL series have larger sound holes and I've noticed if you hit the strings hard then they begin exhibit harsh metallic overtones. So you might get power but not necessarily a good tone.

That's really interesting - it was the one criticism I had of my LL16 - played softly it was fantastic, the string spacing and playability were fantastic, but if you hit those plain strings hard with a plectrum there was something odd about the sound that made me wince a bit - it wasn't the sort of thing that was apparent in softer playing, or indeed all of the time, but once I heard it I couldn't un-hear it.

That said, we're on speculating here that the soundhole size is the factor. I doubt Atkin would get away with it...

True, there could other factors, but it would certainly be the first thing I'd look for if trying an Atkin or Martin with a bigger sound hole. Truth is a lot of the suggestions as louder replacements for guitars, such as banjos and dobros, they too have harsh metallic sounds particularly when played pick style.

Lewy · November 2017

When it comes to large soundholes and bluegrass, it all comes from one specific guitar - Tony Rice’s D28 which previously belonged to Clarence White. Acoustically, it is said to not be all that loud, and has less bass and more mids. That’s allegedly down to the soundhole but there’s so much else going on with that guitar. The body is smaller in all dimensions than it should be, it’s been flooded and dried out ... impossible to say why it sounds the way it does.

What can can be said is that that guitar has not spent much time in bluegrass jams as we think of them, and the same can be said of Tony Rice. A delicate and nuanced player who would almost certainly be inaudible at your typical bluegrass picking session.

crunchman · November 2017

Lewy said:

ps. @crunchman - which tuner app has a dB meter? Would love to find out the relative loudness of my guitars as they vary a lot from the “driving seat”.

@lewy it's DA Tuner Lite.

Obviously, given different phones with different mics and sensitivities it's not going to be an accurate absolute value but it can give you an idea. I was surprised that the Martin was that much louder. It doesn't actually seem that loud when you are playing it. I've played some Martins that come across as absolute cannons when you play them but this one just seems really well balanced, but still produces decent volume.

Trude · November 2017

Jimbro66 said:

I played dobro in a bluegrass band for 4 or 5 years and have played at hundreds of bluegrass jams. Banjo, fiddle and dobro are all louder than guitar and a mandolin cuts through well because of its higher frequencies.

Out of interest @Jimbro66, which model of dobro were you using? I dabble a bit and play a Gretsch Bobtail squareneck in a country band (also play electric on most of the songs). It's fine when miked up or plugged in, but it doesn't cut through so well in acoustic settings. I can usually hear it fine myself when playing of course, but people have told me it doesn't project very well. I don't know how much of this is down to technique (I am using nylon thumbpick and nickel fingerpicks), or if it's the instrument itself holding me back.

Is this the start of a whole new era of Squareneck-GAS?

CloudNine · November 2017

Some of the Collings I have had were pretty loud, had a D3 that was a beast. I guess would cut through well, not that I have ever been to a bluegrass jam... Wasn't a great strummer though to be honest, lacking a bit of warmth. Suppose that is often the trade off with guitars that are built to be loud for bluegrass. Also had an early SCGC Tony Rice, with the big soundhole. That wasn't a particularly loud guitar, sounded nice though. Slight issue that it was collapsing in on itself... Maybe a little too much the light build side some of the SCGC's, although they mostly sound beautiful.

Currently have a Bourgeois D Signature, Adirondack and Madagascar RW, which is an incredible guitar. Seems to have all the power and volume you could ever need, but not harsh in any way. Would make a great bluegrass guitar, but still fantastic for strumming and finger style. Very versatile, and probably has the most 'wow factor' on first strum of any dread I have played.

Lewy · November 2017

CloudNine said:

Some of the Collings I have had were pretty loud, had a D3 that was a beast. I guess would cut through well, not that I have ever been to a bluegrass jam... Wasn't a great strummer though to be honest, lacking a bit of warmth.

Very much the Collings dread thing - acoustic grunt, but quite bright, very direct and it all goes forward, not much back to you as the player. Perfect in a jam and on the stage, but far from the most gratifying sofa guitar.

I’m a fan but totally see why people try them and don’t like them compared to warmer instruments. I think the new “Traditional” range is quite diffeeent though.

Jimbro66 · November 2017

Trude said:

Out of interest @Jimbro66, which model of dobro were you using? I dabble a bit and play a Gretsch Bobtail squareneck in a country band (also play electric on most of the songs). It's fine when miked up or plugged in, but it doesn't cut through so well in acoustic settings. I can usually hear it fine myself when playing of course, but people have told me it doesn't project very well. I don't know how much of this is down to technique (I am using nylon thumbpick and nickel fingerpicks), or if it's the instrument itself holding me back.

Is this the start of a whole new era of Squareneck-GAS?

I started off with Dobro D60 which was a bit feeble. Then I had a couple of square-neck resos built for me about 12 years ago by Gregg McKenna, one 6-string and the other 8-string. Gregg had a workshop in Windsor CT but I believe he is retired now. His instruments come up from time to time in the classifieds of American forums.

When I changed from the Dobro to the McKenna the difference in tone, volume and particularly sustain was quite marked. The problem with square-neck reso pricing is that there is a big jump from the entry level ones of a few hundred pounds to the luthier ones often upwards of £3K. Something like a used Goldtone or Wechter Scheerhorn would probably be a step up from the Gretsch without spending silly money.

As regards being heard, the square-neck reso throws most its volume upwards so it sounds a lot louder to the player than to the listeners. The opposite of an acoustic guitar really. If you can, tilt the instrument forward slightly and then dig in!

Jimbro66 · November 2017

CloudNine said:

Currently have a Bourgeois D Signature, Adirondack and Madagascar RW, which is an incredible guitar. Seems to have all the power and volume you could ever need, but not harsh in any way. Would make a great bluegrass guitar, but still fantastic for strumming and finger style. Very versatile, and probably has the most 'wow factor' on first strum of any dread I have played.

The guitarist of the bluegrass band I played in used a Bourgeois dread of similar spec. Great sounding guitar and lovely to play.

Trude · November 2017

Thanks @Jimbro66 - I'll keep an eye out for those makes.

AliGorie · November 2017

VimFuego said:

think the chap in mumford plays a banjitar (banjo body but guitar neck and tuning) or mebbe a tenor banjo, which is basically a banjo body and tenor guitar neck and tuning.

yup - all contrived image that stuff, now here's contrived image (including a string for a strap and an ol' style 'Hamilton' capo -
I prefer ol' tyme country music - jug bands etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL94lAhcik0

and on guitar -
https://youtu.be/v8qYxC0lt_4

rossi · November 2017

I used to play bluegrass and stuff with my mate in the mid 60;s at london folk clubs .Used a Harmony Sovereign and sung harmony with my mate..I had no idea that there were blue grass jams around .Trouble is my Sov is knackered from all those Epiphone heavy guage strings I used to put on ,a set a week .Has a fingerbpard like a farmers field and fret ruts as just as deep .I do have a NOS fingerboard but never plucked up courage to try fitting it .

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Become a Subscriber!

I went to a Bluegrass jam...

Comments