Do laminate guitars improve with age.

proggy · November 2017

A friend of mine has an old, all laminate, Washburn acoustic that he's owned for about 40 odd years or so and he told me recently that it's finally beginning to sound like a decent guitar. I joked that it was probably his playing that's finally started to improve. He insists that the guitar is improving with age.

I thought that acoustics improved in sound due to the wood opening up with years of playing. Surely this wouldn't apply to laminates with all those layers of glue! Would it?

AlexC · November 2017

What I'm about to say has no basis in any science, so shout me down by all means... There's still wood in the guitar, so I would think 'yes' it does improve with age. in my personal experience all guitars (electric and acoustic) 'develop' over time. Although I'm guessing a carbon fibre guitar probably doesn't.

proggy · November 2017

AlexC said:

What I'm about to say has no basis in any science, so shout me down by all means... There's still wood in the guitar, so I would think 'yes' it does improve with age. in my personal experience all guitars (electric and acoustic) 'develop' over time. Although I'm guessing a carbon fibre guitar probably doesn't.

Thinking about it, it probably does. I used to work in the building industry years ago and fondly remember how the sheets of plywood used to bend if left out in the rain or sun, plenty of movement.

ICBM · November 2017

Yes, they do.

It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

proggy · November 2017

ICBM said:

Yes, they do.

It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

@ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.

AliGorie · November 2017

theres wood involved it'll lose gums and resins which decrease damping which will increase resonance also the fibers 'loosen up' and get used to vibrating - also depending what glues used some will become almost crystalline further reducing damping. Well made laminate guitars use just enough glue to adhere the layers of wood and not to be confused with typical 'ply wood'
same things happen to solid wood guitars, I cant speak for Washburn but I've got an Yairi-Alvarez laminate b/sides just got noticeably better over 10 / 15 yrs after the soundboard (cedar) became played in over 3 or 4 years
oh and there's more to guitar 'opening up' or 'playing in' than back sides and top - theres the neck, bridge + bracing system normally made of solid woods and all become more resonant as described above.
Think of the bridge / soundboard / bridge plate - thats a laminate, as is any other layered woods in the construction - the braces to soundboard and soundboard to linings etc.

richardhomer · November 2017

The suspension and cone in a speaker aren’t made of solid wood - but most people generally accept that a well-used one sounds different to one that’s straight out of the box.

I can’t think of any logical reason why a laminate top won’t improve - at least to some extent - with age/use.

Fuengi · November 2017

If it's kept in a house with central heating my guess is that guitar will take just a few months to dry out fully, not decades.

I work in architecture and even thick layers of timber don't take that long to dry out - the rule of thumb is one year per inch. Guitars have incredibly thin tops so most will have dried fully in the store.

The vibration thing I don't fully get, but seems to sell well.

TimmyO · November 2017

There's drying out to the degree that there is no further change to macro properties (ability to bear load, deflection etc) and there's drying out to the degree that it affects smaller-scale properties like small changes in mass and stiffness in smaller sections.

Add to that the fact that it's not all about drying, but about the composition of the glue and changes in the internal structure.

Knowing something's 2nd moment of inertia is different from knowing how it will vibrate in thin sections for small inputs.

koneguitarist · November 2017

The key is in the playing, the more it gets played more it loosens up and resonates more freely.
my old Sigma is laminate back and sides but solid spruce top. The sound has changed drastically over the years.

viz · November 2017

proggy said:

ICBM said:

Yes, they do.

It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

@ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.

Not really - you were complimenting his playing. Now you've got to tell him "sorry mate, ICBM has confirmed you were right - it's your guitar that's improved, not your playing"!

the_mechanic · November 2017

I thinks it's due to the loss of water.
New guitars (even back in the days) are made with relatively fresh wood, which is treated in ovens to enhance exsiccation. This kind of process it's effective to shorten guitar production time but it isn't the best way to bring out the sound from them (at least the "cheaper ones").
Of course the inner layers are glued, so that residual humidity takes a lot of time to "escape" the layer. Furthermore, on the exterior you have the gloss, which force the "evaporation" in just one direction, the inner side.
And that's it, I think. In absence of residual humidity (or at least under a certain percentage) the wood tightens up and it's more resonant.

Sorry for my bad english

proggy · November 2017

viz said:

proggy said:

ICBM said:

Yes, they do.

It's true that the plywood has glue in it. So what? At least 90% of it is still wood.

@ICBM Your word is good enough for me, I'll have to apologise to my mate now for mocking his playing.

Not really - you were complimenting his playing. Now you've got to tell him "sorry mate, ICBM has confirmed you were right - it's your guitar that's improved, not your playing"!

@viz I hadn't thought of that, nice one. I owe you a pint.

viz · November 2017

Lol

menamestom · November 2017

I have an old Ibanez classical guitar that sounds great and is ply. Of course I bought it when it was old so never got to try it any other way but it definitely sounds like a guitar with old worn in materials, even if they are ply. Stands to reason the more something vibrates, the more it will loosen up to those vibrations.

proggy · November 2017

richardhomer said:

The suspension and cone in a speaker aren’t made of solid wood - but most people generally accept that a well-used one sounds different to one that’s straight out of the box.

I can’t think of any logical reason why a laminate top won’t improve - at least to some extent - with age/use.

@richardhomer Basically mate, I think it's probably down to me listening to the guitar shop jargon for all these years, telling me I'd be better off spending a bit more and getting the solid wood model as it will age better and the sound will improve, and all that sort of talk.

proggy · November 2017

menamestom said:

I have an old Ibanez classical guitar that sounds great and is ply. Of course I bought it when it was old so never got to try it any other way but it definitely sounds like a guitar with old worn in materials, even if they are ply. Stands to reason the more something vibrates, the more it will loosen up to those vibrations.

I also have an Aria dreadnaught which is all laminate, cost about £130. It also sounds really nice, but I don't know if it will improve with age and playing. Time will tell I suppose!

impmann · November 2017

About 12 years ago, I bought a Tanglewood small bodied acoustic for about £175 including a hard case. I bought it because it sounded superb for the money. Since then I'm fairly sure its got better with age - I doubt it'll ever sound like a 1940s Martin but its a nice sounding guitar that I'd be reluctant to ever part with. And it has changed in sound slightly - and imho for the better. That guitar surprised me when I realised that the top was laminate - I discovered that a year after purchase!

TimmyO · November 2017

I’m 46

In the 20 years I’ve owned my laminate back and sides dread im guessing it’s likely that my hearing has changed as much as the guitars

Exorcist · November 2017

I've got an old cats eyes, and I'm pretty sure the top is laminate, I rarely pick it up as I have a faith that is the 'better' guitar, However, I picked it up the other day, and played it, and was astounded at how good it sounded. I picked up the Faith immediately and that still sounded great, but the 'cats eyes' sounded much better than I remember, and was not the inferior guitar, just a different but very full tone.

AliGorie · November 2017

the_mechanic said:

I thinks it's due to the loss of water.
New guitars (even back in the days) are made with relatively fresh wood,

So - no lignin, resin or gums in the wood you use.
These take much longer and / or higher temperatures to become completely 'dry' and crystalline.
Traditional Spanish luthiers kept their stash' in the loft space of their workshop - under the tiled roof with the Mediterranean sun beating down and now individual builders bake their wood in domestic ovens to speed up this process, it apply's both to hardwood and softwood.
Traditionally violin makers wont use wood that hasn't been 'seasoned' for a minimum of 10 years for this very reason.

Wolfetone · November 2017

Yes, they certainly do. Some of the nicest sounding acoustic guitars are old Yamaha's.

Jalapeno · November 2017

On a pedantic note laminate is NOT plywood.

Wolfetone · November 2017

Jalapeno said:

On a pedantic note laminate is NOT plywood.

Ah, I thought that if it were plies of wood laminated, it was ply wood?

'Plywood and laminated wood are two types of common available alternatives to traditional wood. The main difference between the two is the fact that plywood is made from sheets of wood called veneer, whereas laminates can be manufactured from high-density fiber, melamine resin or wood particles. In case of laminated wood, the wood veneers are pasted parallel to each other, as opposed to the right angles in plywood.'

Bridgehouse · November 2017

Do you think that Gibson ES-335's get better with age?

Jalapeno · November 2017

Wolfetone said:

Jalapeno said:

On a pedantic note laminate is NOT plywood.

Ah, I thought that if it were plies of wood laminated, it was ply wood?

'Plywood and laminated wood are two types of common available alternatives to traditional wood. The main difference between the two is the fact that plywood is made from sheets of wood called veneer, whereas laminates can be manufactured from high-density fiber, melamine resin or wood particles. In case of laminated wood, the wood veneers are pasted parallel to each other, as opposed to the right angles in plywood.'

There's a world of difference between the cheap shitty plywood they use in packing cases or the back of Ikea wardrobes and laminated rosewood or mahogany used on acoustics.

ICBM · November 2017

Plywood is a specific type of laminate. Laminate describes the construction method of thin layers of wood glued together, plywood means that it has layers with the grain alternating at 90 degrees.

So you can legitimately say "laminate" when referring to a plywood guitar if you want to make it sound less cheap

.

crunchman · November 2017

Bridgehouse said:

Do you think that Gibson ES-335's get better with age?

I've got a friend who had one that he said did get better with age. He told me a story about it being stuck in it's case under the stairs for years (about 5 I think) because he didn't like it. Someone came round and they were jamming and that was the only spare guitar in the house. He said the guitar was completely different after all that time.

richardhomer · November 2017

Bridgehouse said:

Do you think that Gibson ES-335's get better with age?

The neck and bridge are actually attached to the maple centre-block - so it could be argued that what you’re hearing is the ‘solid’ part of the guitar.

In my experience, modern ones do sound different to older ones played unplugged. ‘Woodier’ probably sums up the older ones....

carlos · November 2017

Fuengi said:

If it's kept in a house with central heating my guess is that guitar will take just a few months to dry out fully, not decades.

I work in architecture and even thick layers of timber don't take that long to dry out - the rule of thumb is one year per inch. Guitars have incredibly thin tops so most will have dried fully in the store.

The vibration thing I don't fully get, but seems to sell well.

Don't bring reason to a discussion on the mythical properties of tonewoods.

crunchman · November 2017

carlos said:

Fuengi said:

If it's kept in a house with central heating my guess is that guitar will take just a few months to dry out fully, not decades.

I work in architecture and even thick layers of timber don't take that long to dry out - the rule of thumb is one year per inch. Guitars have incredibly thin tops so most will have dried fully in the store.

The vibration thing I don't fully get, but seems to sell well.

Don't bring reason to a discussion on the mythical properties of tonewoods.

It isn't just about drying out though. There are other changes in properties over time. You can see that quite obviously as the wood changes colour. If you have a spruce topped acoustic, you can see the colour change over time (assuming it hasn't got that horrible fake tan "aging toner" that Martin seem to insist on using these days). That change takes a lot longer than a year so it's not moisture content related.

This is quite interesting:

http://www.amjbot.org/content/93/10/1439.long

If you scroll down about two thirds of the way there is a section on wood for sound boards that has a couple of paragraphs on aging, and quotes some references that may be worth tracking down if you have more time than me.

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Do laminate guitars improve with age.

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