Are Ebony finger boards better?

Bucket · August 2013

I'm sure pau ferro is good but I don't really like the look... for me, a fretboard looks best when the colour is uniform. Usually the darker the better (love a slab of jet-black ebony) although I'm a sucker for a nice pale maple board too.

That guitar is nice, Denis. Really like what you've done with the design (would like to see one with an ebony board!

)

Sporky · August 2013

richardhomer said:
I thought this was a temporary arrangement after Gibson's timber 'difficulties'.... Seems like they've used the raid as an opportunity to permanently cheapen an iconic guitar....

Without wanting to sound too hand-wringy, I think the rain forests are more important than historical accuracy.

Bucket · August 2013

Sporky said:

richardhomer said:
I thought this was a temporary arrangement after Gibson's timber 'difficulties'.... Seems like they've used the raid as an opportunity to permanently cheapen an iconic guitar....

Without wanting to sound too hand-wringy, I think the rain forests are more important than historical accuracy.

This too.

WezV · August 2013

ddlooping said:

WezV said:

ddlooping said:

Ebony boards are not better, Pau Ferro ones are. :P

nah, Pau Ferro is ok but its nothing special. to me Pau ferro is to Indian rosewood what Indian is to Brazilian... an acceptable alternative but you find yourself missing something of the more expensive rarer wood. of course i am all for alternatives and will happily use pau ferro - although i do often find the paler brickish colour a bit meh...

Would you describe this as a paler brickish colour? :-O
It does look better now, slightly oiled.

According to the tinternet, Pau Ferro is supposed to be in between Maple and Rosewood in terms of "tone".
Some figures related to density, weight and strength...

Janka (lb) (lb/cuft) Strength (psi)
Rosewood, Indian 3170    53    16,490
Pau ferro, Brazilian ebony 2713    57    22,460
Maple, hard-rock 1156    35    13,030

yes, it clearly has a redder tone than good indian rosewood. there is quite a bit of crossover and you should always judge individual pieces of wood on their merits. but on average pau ferro is dark tan/brick red/brown as opposed to indian rosewood which is brown/dark brown/almost purple

i did mention i would still happily use it, and on a black guitar the redder toned wood does provide a nice contrast.

WezV · August 2013

this seems fairly representative of my experience, although i would say his pau ferro examples are very pale

http://aperioguitar.com/fingerboard-woods/

[Deleted User] · August 2013

Bucket;16268" said:
Sporky said:

richardhomer said:I thought this was a temporary arrangement after Gibson's timber 'difficulties'.... Seems like they've used the raid as an opportunity to permanently cheapen an iconic guitar....

Without wanting to sound too hand-wringy, I think the rain forests are more important than historical accuracy.

This too.

According to the vid on the Taylor site, they've got access to piles of the stuff, which Bob Taylor seems happy to supply to anyone who'll buy it....

To the best of my knowledge, Gibson are happy to provide you with an ebony board on Historic Customs; they will however charge you more for it....

I presume your guitar buying decisions are based on environmental impact alone? FWIW, I have one guitar with an ebony board which I've owned for 20 years....

Sporky · August 2013

richardhomer said:
I presume your guitar buying decisions are based on environmental impact alone?

Why would you presume that? I've not bought a guitar in several years.

The ones I make now are from sustainable forestry, or timber I've bought from people who've given up building, so yes, I do consider the environmental implications. Why buy something destructive when you can buy something responsible?

[Deleted User] · August 2013

Sporky;16339" said:
richardhomer said:I presume your guitar buying decisions are based on environmental impact alone?

Why would you presume that? I've not bought a guitar in several years.

The ones I make now are from sustainable forestry, or timber I've bought from people who've given up building, so yes, I do consider the environmental implications. Why buy something destructive when you can buy something responsible?

I am NOT advocating reckless use of rare woods; I am saying that Gibson want customers to pay a premium for a Custom, even though the constituent parts are not 'premium'.

As I've stated in other contributions to this thread, I have no problem with makers using alternatives (man made or otherwise) - provided the price reflects what you are getting.

You seem to be trying to position me as a Clarksonesque advocate of using the world's precious resources until they are used up; nothing I have said should suggest this is the case.

Having reread this draft, it sounds quite defensive. This is regrettable, as I have not said anything which requires defending.....

ICBM · August 2013

I think buyers now need to accept that if you want a classic Gibson made the traditional way from traditional materials, you have to go to the Historic models.

I don't think this is a problem, although I think it would be much better if the 'modernised' guitars were also improved in other ways which would make them less prone to damage. After all, if you're going to make a Les Paul Standard that's a semi-acoustic and a Les Paul Custom with a plastic fingerboard, why not reinforce the headstock with a carbon fibre inset that you can't even see from the outside?

It baffles and annoys me that they'll happily change something to save money or weight and claim it doesn't affect the tone, but won't change something that hundreds or maybe even thousands of unlucky owners a year find out the hard way is a major design flaw.

jimmyd · August 2013

Bucket said:

I'm sure pau ferro is good but I don't really like the look... for me, a fretboard looks best when the colour is uniform. Usually the darker the better (love a slab of jet-black ebony) although I'm a sucker for a nice pale maple board too.

That guitar is nice, Denis. Really like what you've done with the design (would like to see one with an ebony board! )

+1. Jet black fret boards are teh awesomez. Especially on tasteless 80s style rock machines...

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy351/jamesmdarley/Jacksonred_zps9383c21c.jpg

ddlooping · August 2013

Bucket said:

That guitar is nice, Denis. Really like what you've done with the design (would like to see one with an ebony board! )

Thanks, Connor.

Sporky · August 2013

richardhomer said:
You seem to be trying to position me as a Clarksonesque advocate of using the world's precious resources until they are used up; nothing I have said should suggest this is the case.

Not at all, chief, and I apologise if it came across that way. I just think Gibson are in an awkward position - darned either way.

Bucket · August 2013

ICBM said:

I think it would be much better if the 'modernised' guitars were also improved in other ways which would make them less prone to damage. After all, if you're going to make a Les Paul Standard that's a semi-acoustic and a Les Paul Custom with a plastic fingerboard, why not reinforce the headstock with a carbon fibre inset that you can't even see from the outside?

It baffles and annoys me that they'll happily change something to save money or weight and claim it doesn't affect the tone, but won't change something that hundreds or maybe even thousands of unlucky owners a year find out the hard way is a major design flaw.

SO MUCH THIS.

Also, @jimmyd, that Soloist is lovely.

Sporky · August 2013

ICBM said:

a Les Paul Custom with a plastic fingerboard

GnnnnnnnnnnnnnaaaARGH!

I know you're just taking the piss, but there's as much wood fibre per gram in Richlite as in ebony.

monquixote · August 2013

I love ebony boards.

They feel all slippy and fast and they sound good and zingy.

I've got no problem with a Richlite board if it works the same, but I'm completely with ICBM that producing guitars that aren't reissues, but also don't improve on the flaws of the originals is just plain daft.

ROOG · August 2013

I did try a well used 80's LP, that did feel nicer than a new Midtown. Not sure how much that was down to the material or just because it was 'run in'

Lew · August 2013

I love the look and feel of ebony but all the electric guitars I've had with ebony boards have had some uncomplimentary high end frequencies and a really really fast attack that I dislike. Think the one exception was a Hamer Californian with solid maple body, who knows what that was about!

Dave_Mc · August 2013

monquixote said:
I've got no problem with a Richlite board if it works the same, but I'm completely with ICBM that producing guitars that aren't reissues, but also don't improve on the flaws of the originals is just plain daft.

+1

jimmyd said:

+1. Jet black fret boards are teh awesomez. Especially on tasteless 80s style rock machines...

http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy351/jamesmdarley/Jacksonred_zps9383c21c.jpg

That's the height of good taste! (I'm not even joking)

ICBM · August 2013

Sporky said:

ICBM said:

a Les Paul Custom with a plastic fingerboard
GnnnnnnnnnnnnnaaaARGH!

I know you're just taking the piss, but there's as much wood fibre per gram in Richlite as in ebony.

Sorry

.

Yes, I know...

I'd actually far rather a decent Richlite board than some of the streaky ebony they've used in the past on Studios - yes, I also know that they did this on purpose to use B-grade wood rather than scrap it, which is sensible, but it really doesn't look nice.

Sporky · August 2013

I've got a blank of the stuff sitting next to me - might as well use it in the next build.

Raw it does have a slight oddness to it looks-wise, but it has an OK ring when tapped.

[Deleted User] · August 2013

Ebony fingerboards are definitely better than cheese fingerboards.

digitalscream · August 2013

ICBM said:
I'd actually far rather a decent Richlite board than some of the streaky ebony they've used in the past on Studios - yes, I also know that they did this on purpose to use B-grade wood rather than scrap it, which is sensible, but it really doesn't look nice.

Y'know...I actually quite like streaky ebony. I can't remember exactly, but I think I've got a streaked ebony board on my next Jaden Rose...

Half the black ebony boards out there these days are just dyed black anyway, by all accounts.

impmann · August 2013

Streaky? On Studios? Really? When?

I've owned a couple of early/mid 90s Studios with ebony boards - and btw, IMHO these were the best LP Studio models ever made ( I bought one in 1994 over MANY Les Paul Customs that I tried at Rosetti) - and neither had streaks. In fact, the one I currently have has a very dense, very black board - and before anything is said, no it isn't dyed as after all these years and lots of gigs it would start showing...

I thought the ebony boards ended in around late '94 to early '95...

Back on topic - ebony boards do change the tone of a guitar. I swapped out a rosewood board Strat neck for an Ebony boarded one and it did sound different - harder attack and more harmonic content. I actually wouldn't say it was better, just different.

ICBM · August 2013

impmann said:

Streaky? On Studios? Really? When?

Sometimes - not all of them. I've seen a few with quite ugly streaks in - not even really "streaky" which can look nice, just a random brown steak somewhere. It doesn't change the quality of the guitar, obviously - just looked a bit cheap.

Others have made me wonder why they were on a Studio at all, since the logic was to use up B-grade ebony which wasn't good enough for a Custom, and they looked fine.

Evilmags · August 2013

The guitar and instrument industry are not heavy users. Furniture makers get through was more of the rarer woods.

octatonic · August 2013

Sporky said:
Not at all, chief

A sure sign of middle-age- using words like 'chief', 'sport', 'cobber' & 'chum' without irony.

At least you haven't started saying 'sonny' I guess.

WezV · August 2013

the ethics of wood choice is important to me, but it doesn't really help to answer the question. but if we answer the question truthfully then we are also encouraging the use of these unethical woods

so my opinion, separate from the issue of ethical wood choice:

Brazilian rosewood is the best fretboard choice for almost all guitars. But its simply not available and the quality of the stuff you can get is questionable. you can get pretty wood from dug up stumps still, but the really good stuff comes from large straight grained trees which simply don't exist. when you see new guitars with brazilian rosewood its often of such a poor grade i would not touch it. you see old ones and it looks just dark and boring - that;'s the stuff i want

Ebony is second best for me, but it doesn't suit everything because of the fast attack it brings to the mix. I don't care about streaks or discolouration as i am happy to dye. Macasser ebony is a particular favourite, a bit more rosewoody in appearance but still feels like ebony. I think Bob taylor talks a lot of sense on the issue. if you still want to use it then accept it wont be pure black and you can

Indian rosewood is a pretty good choice. its kinda vanilla, but there is nothing wrong with good vanilla. it is still mostly available and plantation grown versions are now a viable option

there are a hundred other alternatives i could list but i can't be bothered. They will all work if they have the right grain structure and can hold a fret, and most will work pretty well

Sporky · August 2013

octatonic said:

Sporky said:
Not at all, chief

A sure sign of middle-age- using words like 'chief', 'sport', 'cobber' & 'chum' without irony.
At least you haven't started saying 'sonny' I guess.

Chief and chum are the only ones of those I use. I feel no shame.

Back on topic I've still got a neck-sized chunk of macassar I bought from Wez - I'm afraid to touch it with a tool. It is beeyootiful.

jimmyd · August 2013

Slightly OT but I find the word "chum" slightly sinister

Evilmags · August 2013

The jet black stuff is Gabon ebony. Very tightly controlled and very expensive. Macassar is basically a (very nice) substitute. I own two acoustics made from real, old stock (pre CITES) Brazilian rosewood and the wood cost a small fortune. I would not pay for that wood on a solidbody, ever as it is pointless. On an archtop or an acoustic I would if I was well flush. Cocobolo is a lovely fretboard material. Much harder than rosewood but similar in looks. If any of the builders want to look into alternative woods my brother has tonnes of African stuff as he owns a furniture maker. Ironwood and blackwood would both work methinks.

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Are Ebony finger boards better?

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