should we give "our guys" a platform

Evilmags · August 2013

As most people know I'm a big fan of small builders and small businesses. I think it would be cool as fuck, especially given the predominance of big brands in ye industry if we allowed the pros we have here to showcase their work. Guys like Weasel, Van Hayden and Wez give us all a wealth of encouragement, which I really appreciate and I love their posts. I also enjoy watching the creations of peeps like Sporky and TTony come to life in full technicolour. I don't even see it as advertising gives the hold the big boys have on the industry. I feel that encouraging individuality, while at the same time helping these guys to make a living is a cool thing to do. It would also provide a balance against the constant brand pushing of musicradar and their 5 star reviews for their advertisers. As long as they stay as helpful as they are and don't go all corporate on us I think it would be a really cool thing to do.

monquixote · August 2013

We've got a very relaxed attitude towards small builders sharing what they are doing provided that it is put forward in the context of providing some genuinely interesting or useful content rather than just a sales pitch.

Did you have anything in mind over and above not stamping on people mentioning stuff they make in threads?

TTony · August 2013

Fully agree with the concept.

I did start a discussion way back (as long ago as when we started this place!) here, for custom/small builders, but it's faded away a little - it's on page 3 of the guitars section now

Apart from your reasoning (fully supported by me) of giving the smaller builders some profile here, I also thought it would help our own profile. There's no way that we're going to be swapping tweets & FB likes and website links with Gibson or Yamaha or PRS or (et al), but we may well be able to build those sorts of links - and hence help boost the profile of theFB - with the smaller UK builders.

I'd differentiate between the hobby builders (Sporky, myself, Jooky, etc) and the commercial builders - this initiative would be for the commercial builders (ie not purely parts-assemblers) who are UK-based.

We might also be able to do some journo-discussions, such as following the build of a guitar through the whole process, tours of workshops, perhaps a regular "building tip of the week" discussion, etc ...

JookyChap · August 2013

I think it's a great idea - maybe as a magazine format - Featured Builder, day in the life, something more interesting, types of thing & quite agree it should be aimed at the chaps who are trying to make a living at this sort of thing.

A TFB house guitar magazine would be lovely and let's face it not hard to do on-line these days - I can see "ICBM's Corner" going down a storm

Evilmags · August 2013

Maybe a page of links to small guys websites and a photogallery.

Longtallronnie · August 2013

Did Feline guitars make it over? I miss drooling over his stuff.

TTony · August 2013

Longtallronnie said:

Did Feline guitars make it over? I miss drooling over his stuff.

He's here.

[edit]

And I've just moved the discussion from Classifieds>Guitars into Gear>Guitar as it's not really about selling stuff.

Longtallronnie · August 2013

I assume he's aware of the 80% discount to all theFB members?

JookyChap · August 2013

Longtallronnie said:

I assume he's aware of the 80% discount to all theFB members?

Yeah, he's just off doubling his prices..

OilCityPickups · August 2013

There's actually another side effect that isn't immediate is that normally Jon from Feline, myself, Andy from Wudtone, Hayden etc don't get a chance to chat with each other ... never mind you lot! Cooperation in the small UK music industry is damn useful ... and in the long run probably beneficial to the customers!

I think we all realise it's a privilidge to be able to have a profile on here and try not to extract the wee wee. I think I've posted twice on TDPRI as the rules are so strictly enforced if anyone asks what you do for a living you have to be stupidly coy.

TTony · August 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said:

There's actually another side effect that isn't immediate is that normally Jon from Feline, myself, Andy from Wudtone, Hayden etc don't get a chance to chat with each other ...

There's an idea.

Would there be any value in the "professionals" having their own section for business-type discussions? That could be closed/private if necessary so it's not visible to us general consumerists.

Probably not enough of you guys here (yet), but something for the future perhaps ...

OilCityPickups · August 2013

If we get a few more more it's an idea ... I don't know about closed ... I mean we can PM eachother as it stands ... but a UK music pros section would be nice eventually.

FelineGuitars · August 2013

Hi - I'm here, but haven't been posting that much anywhere due to being distracted watching catch up episodes of Breaking Bad.

I'm hoping that this forum will grow to be as established as MR was.

Also I appreciate the attitude towards allowing UK businesses who make stuff rather than just distributors have a bit of a playground.

We do have some really good talent over here but all too often it seems we'd all rather fawn over somer guy in USA when our homegrown talent is just as good.

I'd love to see a weekend guitar show where all the British guys would go along and show off their stuff without it needing to break the bank to do.

Recently talking with Ash at Oil City reminded me how easily all the enterprising UK makers of stuff can get along and be social about stuff.

I did start trying to have a closed group on Facebook called the UK Luthiers Social Club, the entrance proviso is that you be a FULL TIME

I'm really enjoying the new forum, although struggling a bit with some of the new format and some things that I was used to from MR I can't find and it may just be me struggling to come to terms with the format

Maybe there will be things that can be ironed out next time a revision is done

Make it easier to look through posts someone has done

A clearer Private message system

Lose some of the silly token thingies - like getting brownie points etc in favour of straightforward functionality

I don't need LOLs Wows and facepalms - just easy navigation

TTony · August 2013

FelineGuitars said:

I'm really enjoying the new forum, although struggling a bit with some of the new format and some things that I was used to from MR I can't find and it may just be me struggling to come to terms with the format

Give us some specifics - what are you struggling with?

Make it easier to look through posts someone has done
A clearer Private message system

Click on the person's name. That takes you to their profile page. Under their avatar, on the LHS of the page, you should see headings for Activity, Discussions and Comments. Click comments to see everything that they've posted, when, and in which discussion. Click on the discussion title (in blue at the bottom of each comment made) to see the full context of the discussion in which the comment was made.

For PMs, click the envelope icon which is always displayed, under your userid. That'll take you to the PM screen where you see the list of PMs by title and correspondent. Click on any of the individual messages to see the full history of message in/out.

If you want to include someone else into a PM discussion, invite them with @FelineGuitars.

FelineGuitars said:

Lose some of the silly token thingies - like getting brownie points etc in favour of straightforward functionality
I don't need LOLs Wows and facepalms - just easy navigation

Don't go there!

The intention was that those would give a better indication of someone's contribution to the forum rather than just "post count". Thus, if a person was giving advice, but had no advice points and lots of facepalms, you might not treat it too seriously (etc). The concept is still finding its way ...

OilCityPickups · August 2013

I will say nothing .... :P

WezV · August 2013

since I am mentioned in the first post and people seem to want to distinguish between pro's and enthusiastic amateurs I suppose I will explain my situation again

I am not, and have never have been, a full time guitar builder. I started when i worked in schools and found myself with a massive amount of free time during summer. I now do an office job for a major brewer and guitar building has slowed down a lot since i changed careers and my baby was born 18 months ago.

I was faced with the choice a few years ago whether to "go pro" or stick with it as a "hobby". I decided i could make a better living in a normal job and guitar building would always be a nice escape rather than something I need to stress about. It was a wise choice given the number of new "pro-luthiers" that have arisen in the UK since then... many of which have not made a fraction of the guitars i have or worked with the variety of guitars and repairs... but that is beside the point

when i was doing about 10 guitars a year they ended up being mostly tele's, and doing it full time would have meant turning down (or charging the earth for) anything out of the ordinary as it just wouldn't be profitable.

I remember when Nathan Sheppard was getting loads of great reviews in guitarist and thought that could be me... in a way it is, but i had the common sense to hold back from letting things get beyond a level I could handle

i will just carry on doing what I can, when I can for the people who are willing to wait for me to get around to it.

JookyChap · August 2013

I don't think the criteria is whether people are doing this full-time as such, more whether they are professional in what they do and whether they 'give' their experience to us lesser mortals on the forum without turning it into an obvious advertorial. I'd certainly be including Mr WezV in anything we do in this department as he tops out in both and is a nice geezer while he is at it

TTony · August 2013

WezV said:

since I am mentioned in the first post and people seem to want to distinguish between pro's and enthusiastic amateurs I suppose I will explain my situation again

Apologies if that was my misleading reference to "professionals" potentially having their own area to discuss stuff. I was just thinking that there might be confidential or sensitive aspects that might be of value/interest for them to discuss - where to get funding, how to deal with bad debtors, maybe some collaborations, that sort of thing.

Personally (and it is just my individual personal preference, not a forum policy!) I'd really like for this forum to be used to promote the work of the smaller or more specialist UK builders, whether they're professional or amateur, in whatever way those builders want it to, as long as it's in keeping with the way that we're trying to run the rest of the forum. It used to really frustrate me that the mags would always publish review of the latest G/F/P minor change, but never paid much attention to the UK builders who really could have used the exposure and support.

I've put my money where my mouth is through the years, and never regretted it - I'd much rather play a guitar that's been made, rather than one that's been produced - and I've got some wonderful, unique guitars as a result.

As you know

digitalscream · August 2013

TTony said:
I've put my money where my mouth is through the years, and never regretted it - I'd much rather play a guitar that's been made, rather than one that's been produced - and I've got some wonderful, unique guitars as a result.

I'm with you on that. I have one guitar that's made by a UK luthier, and it's singlehandedly cured my GAS for anything else.

Don't forget @jaden has an account on here too, although he's currently too busy trying to kill himself offroading to post on forums...

WezV · August 2013

I didn't mean to put a downer on anything. I think all that has been spoken about so far is fine. I am just aware i straddle a fence.

I was on PG for ages thinking of myself as an enthusiastic amateur and suddenly it became important for some people over there to try and classify and define my involvement in the guitar industry. Perry Ormsby told me in no uncertain terms that i was a pro, and i was a pro because of the quality of my output. fair enough but i know others would disagree

I know others would say you are not a pro unless you are full time, and I know some that would say you are not a pro unless you do every part of the operation yourself (often these allow for buying hardware and pickups from others)

none of this matters really because i will carry on to work the way i think is best for me and i carry on making guitars as best i can

I do think its important i am clear that i don't do this full time, just because i feel its important I manage customer expectations properly.

I do sometimes feel guilty that i am taking money away from the guys that do it full time. but I also know I share a few customers with Jon, and at least 2 of those will still use both of us on a regular basis depending on what they want. I also know i turn down a lot more work than i accept

TTony · August 2013

WezV said:

Perry Ormsby told me in no uncertain terms that i was a pro, and i was a pro because of the quality of my output. fair enough but i know others would disagree

I know others would say you are not a pro unless you are full time

Part-time pro.

FWIW, I don't think that it's a zero-sum game - ie if someone buys one of your guitars, they then don't buy a Feline (or whatever). That's not what happens.

I think the bigger challenge is to raise awareness of the quality of guitars being produced by UK small builders so that they become a recognised choice for UK guitar buyers. The competition isn't each other (whether hobbyist or pro, part or full-time), it's the Gibson, Fender or PRS alternatives that hang from the walls of most guitar shops and which are the brands that most guitar buyers aspire to. Because those are "the best" (it says so in all the magazines).

Actually, my first small-builder buy (NSG) was at the London guitar show from a few years ago. I went to the show with the wifely approval to spend sufficient to buy my "dream" guitar which, at that time, was something with a PRS on the headstock. They looked wonderful in all the ads. So, I headed to a stand with lots of PRSs on it, picked up a few, strummed a couple, but didn't really "feel" anything about them. I then happened by Nathan's stand, chatted with the guy for a bit, picked up some of his guitars and did "feel" something. I bought one of Nathan's, and left the PRS behind.

PRS was a whole lot better at business than NSG. But Nathan's guitars were better.

FelineGuitars · August 2013

Wez - I'd probably say that you might be considered semi-pro as guitar making has taken up a fair amount of your time .

The only thing I said about full time makers was my group on Facebook as it might allow us to discuss in relative discreet confidence things that affect our daily work and really aren't a public face that we might want to share with people who don't face the same work related challenges.

digitalscream · August 2013

FelineGuitars said:

Wez - I'd probably say that you might be considered semi-pro as guitar making has taken up a fair amount of your time .

The only thing I said about full time makers was my group on Facebook as it might allow us to discuss in relative discreet confidence things that affect our daily work and really aren't a public face that we might want to share with people who don't face the same work related challenges.

What a polite way to say "bitching about fucking annoying punters"

FelineGuitars · August 2013

TTony said:

FelineGuitars said:

I'm really enjoying the new forum, although struggling a bit with some of the new format and some things that I was used to from MR I can't find and it may just be me struggling to come to terms with the format

Give us some specifics - what are you struggling with?

Make it easier to look through posts someone has done
A clearer Private message system

Click on the person's name. That takes you to their profile page. Under their avatar, on the LHS of the page, you should see headings for Activity, Discussions and Comments. Click comments to see everything that they've posted, when, and in which discussion. Click on the discussion title (in blue at the bottom of each comment made) to see the full context of the discussion in which the comment was made.
For PMs, click the envelope icon which is always displayed, under your userid. That'll take you to the PM screen where you see the list of PMs by title and correspondent. Click on any of the individual messages to see the full history of message in/out.
If you want to include someone else into a PM discussion, invite them with @FelineGuitars.
FelineGuitars said:

Lose some of the silly token thingies - like getting brownie points etc in favour of straightforward functionality
I don't need LOLs Wows and facepalms - just easy navigation

Don't go there!
The intention was that those would give a better indication of someone's contribution to the forum rather than just "post count". Thus, if a person was giving advice, but had no advice points and lots of facepalms, you might not treat it too seriously (etc). The concept is still finding its way ...

I think it's just learning my way around and was getting frustrated not knowing where to look for things and was finding some of the funky icons a bit distracting.

I do see the value of the allocation of reputation marks rather than just seeing high post numbers to reflect their standing in our community. I'm sure it will even itself out as time goes on and we all collectively find our way.

WezV · August 2013

TTony said:

I think the bigger challenge is to raise awareness of the quality of guitars being produced by UK small builders so that they become a recognised choice for UK guitar buyers.

that is always going to be the bigger challenge... but even my cousin/sprayer/padawan has brought himself a PRS, Gibson and ESP since we have been building guitars together. but then i have got a john birch, regal resonator and framus archtop in the same time period

the people that worry me are the ones that claim they are doing it better than anyone else out there (zachary!!). I build guitars because i love guitars and i love guitars because good guitars existed for a long time before I was born and continue to exist outside my circle of influence

WezV · August 2013

also, i got a fairly significant promotion in the day job this week which means not only will I have more responsibility and money in my bank every four weeks. I will also be working less hours, regular 9-5 so get my evenings and weekends back!! I will actually be getting guitar things finished again!!

TTony · August 2013

WezV said:

also, i got a fairly significant promotion in the day job this week

Congrats Wez

OilCityPickups · August 2013

I think that actual amount of income earned from building is not really a criteria. personally I had no choice ... I had to make my full time living winding pickups ... but the way each individual pro goes about things will be different. You are a respected maker ... semi pro (in effect) or pro, it makes little difference. A professional attitude and a being a part of the UK music scene is my cutoff point

As Jon (Feline) said earlier Id love to see a UK music show, with all of us little guys being able to put our best work out to the public. the USA is not the be all and end all

TTony · August 2013

TheGuitarWeasel said:As Jon (Feline) said earlier Id love to see a UK music show

I wonder .... do you think we actually could ???

monquixote · August 2013

Speaking for myself, I helped to build this place to make a replacement home for MR exiles, but I would be honoured if it could be used as a platform to promote UK builders.

Would be happy to work on any features that might help to support that.

I've never found myself in the privileged position to have a couple of grand to spend on a guitar, but should that change then I have no interest in a Knaggs, or a PRS. I would most probably be banging on Jonathan's door.

digitalscream · August 2013

TTony said:
I wonder .... do you think we actually could ???

I think we've got a bit of growing to do yet

I don't see that it's totally out of the question, but you have to remember The Great British Guitar Show in Brum already has a pretty good thing going. For the most part, it was all UK companies, and there were some smaller ones there (Matrix and Jaden both had stands).

Howdy, Stranger!

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should we give "our guys" a platform

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