Oh Bugger.... Need advice

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

HAd a REALLY bad moment today. Putting Xmas decs back in the loft - and a Chrtistmas Clock fell out of its box ---- straight through the body of my Avalon Accoustic......

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u65/paulmapp8306/P1030179.jpg

Im 99.9% sure thats not repairable

so its going to be an insurance job.

No idea what a replacement price would e. The Avalons have been out of production for a while, and this one was hand pickled by the guys at Lowden (when they were the same company). I believe I paid £600 or maybe £650 for the original (non hand picked) back in 2003. The origials top dropped after a couple of years - which is when the Lowden guys picked this out for me and retrofitted the elecrtics as the best guitar they had didnt have any.

So - Solid Sruce top, Solid Rosewood sides, Dreadnaught with Electrics (Fishman Prefix Plus). What would be of equivilant build/qualit/spec now. Obviously this is from a price perspective - Im going to have to try several to actually find its replacement, but the insurance company is going to want a rough cost. Its a new for old policy so its just finding what something like this would cost new now.

ICBM · January 2015

Definitely repairable, and might even end up nearly invisible, but you'll need someone who really knows what they're doing.

At least if it's solid… it looks worryingly like it might be ply, in which case it's a whole different problem. May just be a trick of the photo - can you take a closer-up picture of the hole?

VimFuego · January 2015

TBH (and I'm sure our resident acoustic luthiery types will correct me) but it doesn't look that horrendous, I'm sure a suitable repair would be very effective.

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

Thinking back - maybe the back/sides were ply. I was second thinking that just after I posted, and the more I think back the more Im thinking they are ply. Im guessing ply would be much more of an issue re-repair

Strat_a_tat_tat · January 2015

My guess is that damage won't affect how the guitar sounds.

However, it's going to affect its second hand value... so may be worth making a claim

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

VERY difficult to price this up for insurance. AS I say its new for old - and as the make model cant be got new they need an equivalent guitar for pricing.

Using an inflation calculator - £600 back in 2003 is worth £922 now, On a used front - found 2 to date. One went for 620 Euros in Cork (£485) back in 2009, while the other went earlier this year in the US for $1299 (£847).

Im guessing from those 3 sources, its fair to offer the insurance company the value of £920-£950 as the cost of an equivalent guitar today. There is a £50 XS - but would give me £900 or so to find a replacement. The main issue is I would probably need to identify a currently available guitar as similar spec/quality for a price comparison. Quite frankly I wouldnt have a clue on that front.

I now what Id like - but tastes and expectations change, and neither a Martin 00018 (which ist even close to the specs of the Avalone) - or a Taylor 312/314ce which is probably a little highers spec than the Avalone - are suitable. Both are more than the suggested equivalent£920 value (though if they did settle at that, I could probably get the Taylor used for that).

Anyone any ideas of what is a similar spec'd guitar available today? Possibly something like a Faith Hi-Gloss? OK its solid woods rather than laminated back/sides but thats not everything. Dont know what their sizes compare to (neptunes, venus, saturn etc) Taylors with laminated back/sides are more than the Faiths for instance. The Hi-Gloss is the same woods (the naked and naturals are mahogony) which is why Im thinking that. Price for one of those is around £750 so im guessing its in the right ballpark. Faith guitars seem to get the same kind of reviews that Avalons got in their day - that is the best guitars at their price point and on par with some more expensive.

Of course, if a repair is cost effective - that usually means if its less than half the cost of replacement - then they would insist on a repair. However, that repair would need to be un-noticeable OR not impact on any resale value. Given its probably Ply not solid, im guessing thats not an option? A repair would still impact any resale value - sop it would need to be invisible, or pretty close to that.

John_P · January 2015

Just a thought and I might be way out of touch with insurance claims but "new for old" If Avalon aren't availalbe then isn't the equivalent new guitar a Lowden? I'd think about pushing them to buy you a new Lowden with similar spec to your damaged guitar.

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

Ha - dont think they'd play there. A similar spec'd Lowden is £3.5k plus. Avalone, at the time I got mine - were Lowdens off shore, budget badge. Much like Fenders Squire, or Gibsons Epiphone.

I believe they are now a separate manufacturer - being built by Ex Lowden Luthiers. Ill need to check that. Not sure how much insurance companies know - but I suspect there not gullible enough to cough up for a Lowden or modern Avalone.

* edit *

Quick look shows Avalones CHEEPEST rosewood/spruce guitar at £2850. No Electrics, and hand built to order.

As I say - Not sure I could push then for an Avalone, as what the guitars actually are have changed in the last 12 years. Added to that, anything over £2k value needs to be individually listed on the policy, and my Avalone isnt (some of my guitars are) - which further goes against pushing for that.

I guess I COULD say that mine wasnt that much when new, but Avalone dont do off the peg guitars any more - hence the higher cost, then push for something else off the peg - like the Taylor 412 for instance, that comes in under the £2k ceiling. My Guitar has the same head-stock logo so ......

Still think that would be pissing in the wind though.

strtdv · January 2015

Avalon at the time were ex Lowden employees, then there was the silver series and gold series which were made in the far East, then the company got into financial difficulty and I think the Avalon company that is currently making what effectively amount to nice Lowden copies is a different company then what it used to be. There effectively isn't a production guitar that is the same spec as yours, a Taylor 2 series would probably be comparable price, build and spec wise.

Antique_Guitars · January 2015

Repairable for sure, thats actually pretty minor damage really. It will however be difficult to get the repair to match the rest of the guitar aesthetically though. A really decent luthier taking a lot of time could probably get it to match pretty close.

The other thing you could do is turn it into a sound port instead which could actually be quite interesting.

richardhomer · January 2015

Gaffer tape? :-S

WezV · January 2015

Antique_Guitars said:

Repairable for sure, thats actually pretty minor damage really. It will however be difficult to get the repair to match the rest of the guitar aesthetically though. A really decent luthier taking a lot of time could probably get it to match pretty close.

The other thing you could do is turn it into a sound port instead which could actually be quite interesting.

I think thats a really good idea for a repair, but I guess less so from a resale value point of view. the port could easily be bound in the same scheme as the body to make it look like it belongs and hide any laminations. fully repairing and (mostly) hiding it is not out of the question as its a relatively straight grained peice of rosewood

do the insurance company let you keep the broken item when they have replaced new for old?

hobbio · January 2015

Check your policy. If the item claimed for is no longer available insurers usually cap their outlay to the last official price at which it was sold. They also reserve the right to repair damaged items rather than replace, although in your case it's reasonable not to accept a repair offer.

What I'm saying is you'll probably do well to get £650 minus your excess. Do you still have the original purchase receipt? If the last official purchase price was higher it might be worth misplacing it...

hobbio · January 2015

The other option would be a cash in lieu of repair settlement if your insurers will play ball (it's a more common option on motor policies). This means they'll pay you a reduced amount, and you get the guitar repaired with that. This can often work out to your advantage if you can get it repaired cheaply enough, as you're likely to have money left over to buy more gear with.

I'd go with the sound port repair option personally, depending on cost. That would look cool as hell.

hobbio · January 2015

WezV said:

do the insurance company let you keep the broken item when they have replaced new for old?

Depends on the company and what the item is. If they have a company that buys their scrap items then they'll probably keep it but that's not too likely with a guitar. Which means that the cash in lieu stuff I posted is worthless info cos you'll end up with a payout and the guitar anyway

RowlandwithaW · January 2015

It does look repairable.

If you want a replacement, I'd go to your local friendly guitar shop and ask their help explain the situation, and sort the deal out with them, so the insurance company is given the info from the shop and you. "This damaged guitar is no longer available, and an equivalent today including an allowance would be .........."

Bidley · January 2015

I'm surprised at people saying this is easily repairable. Not that I doubt anyone, just can't get my head around how you'd go about repairing that. Is it a case of cleaning up the hole and fitting another piece of wood into it?

WezV · January 2015

Bidley said:

I'm surprised at people saying this is easily repairable. Not that I doubt anyone, just can't get my head around how you'd go about repairing that. Is it a case of cleaning up the hole and fitting another piece of wood into it?

thats the simplest way, and it will be structurally sound, but hard to make invisible

Bidley · January 2015

The more I actually think about it, the more sense it makes (and the more silly I feel!).

All the best with the guitar, hope you find a resolution!

WezV · January 2015

Bidley said:

The more I actually think about it, the more sense it makes (and the more silly I feel!).

nah, its not straightforward by any means. not a job for someone who hasn't practiced on similar before. but it is possible

a couple of similar repairs, not the same by any means - but it gives an idea about how it could be done

small hole refilled with existing chips

http://mrglyn.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/repairing-hole-in-acoustic-side.html

large hole filled with new piece of wood

http://massresonator.com/2013/02/repair-shop-spot-damaged-nbn-guitar/

adding a soundport

http://www.acousticguitarconstructionforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=596

ICBM · January 2015

It's not straightforward - especially if it's ply - but it is doable. If you think about it, why shouldn't it be? All the wood is still there and it's simply been forced out of its original position. "All" (!) you need to do is reverse that :-). If it's solid wood it will generally be easier to get the splinters to go back into place - ply is harder because the cross-grain layer shatters and gets pushed past other pieces so it won't easily go back, but it can sometimes be easier than it looks at first.

Then saturate the broken area with glue, clamp it flat - this is tricky, given that one side of it is inside the guitar, but it can be done (not just with that clever machinehead trick!), and smooth and refinish the area.

NB, this is beyond my personal skills, I'm just reporting how proper luthiers I've worked with would approach it.

Don't make it into a 'soundport', that's really just going to look like a bodge. (In my opinion.) If you can't make a nearly invisible proper repair I'd be inclined to have an obviously contrasting patch or an inlay of some sort.

Roland · January 2015

Yes, keep it simple. Push the wood back, glue and clamp it. Forget any fancy ideas like sound ports. Get a repair quote, and tell the insurers that you'd be happier with that than a replacement, which will inevitably be more expensive. Depending on your insurance excess, and the repair cost, and the effect on next years' premium, it might even be better not to make a claim

WezV · January 2015

a sound port is (relatviely speaking) pretty easy. But yeah, like any repair it needs to be done well to not look like a bodge, it can be done really professionally

The main thing to check is internal support. There may be an extra side support in this location and if there was i would remove it and add 2 new supports about an inch away from the new sound port. I would then check the thickness and stability of the sides, possibly bending a new backing peice to fit inside if I had any concerns. Then once the port was cut I would rebind it matching the body scheme. If all his was done carefully there wouldn't be any need to do any finish work other than on the new bit of binding. As long as a sensible shape was chosen there is no reason for it to look like a bodge

xHymnal · January 2015

If it's ply it will work in your favour in that it won't necessarily split down the grain and the damage will remain localised to the impact zone. If it were solid chances are the clock could have hit it and it caused the damage as well as splitting longways along the grain, thus making the damage actually worse than it looks now. Having said that, a crack along the grain is a common issue with acoustic guitars and any experienced luthier could easily fix it.

WezV · January 2015

Hymnal said:

If it's ply it will work in your favour in that it won't necessarily split down the grain and the damage will remain localised to the impact zone. If it were solid chances are the clock could have hit it and it caused the damage as well as splitting longways along the grain, thus making the damage actually worse than it looks now. Having said that, a crack along the grain is a common issue with acoustic guitars and any experienced luthier could easily fix it.

you are right to mention other unseen damage with acoustics

Acoustics are designed to transfer vibrations and shock from a fall is transferred exactly the same way

as an example - A relitively small knock on the endpin can easily split the end block and loosen a few braces... but you might not see any damage on the outside

guitargeek62 · January 2015

I'm struggling to see why this constitutes a write-off? Kind of surprised that so many people are talking about replacements & the like rather than repairs? $:\$

ICBM · January 2015

guitargeek62 said:

I'm struggling to see why this constitutes a write-off? Kind of surprised that so many people are talking about replacements & the like rather than repairs? $:\$

Not knowing how relatively cheap even a good repair on something like this can be, or sensing an opportunity to take the insurance company for a ride…?

I think a completely invisible repair is going to be very difficult, bordering on impossible - but a good, sound repair that either doesn't show too much or is deliberately visible is quite achievable.

Accidents happen. You don't need to write off a perfectly repairable guitar just because it's got a bit of damage in an area which won't affect the tone.

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

Im perfectly open to repairs, but I need to be realistic to myself. Im a sucker for cosmetic perfection (shame on me). The look DOES matter to me, and anything that is obvious as a repair will drive me nutts. If its invisible, or close I could live with it I guess, but it would need to be fairly inconspicuous. Im guessing (and did from the start) that a repair that wouldnt end up with me either trying to sell, of just not playing the guitar would be impossible. I guess im very shallow in that respect.

Id then need to look at the financial aspect, that is the cost of the repair itself, and the hit on any resale if I ended up not being able to live with it - and then balance that against the cost of a replacement.

I have no idea what a repair would cost. For some people "relatively cheap" would be £100 or so - for others £300. Cost of a suitable replacement/insurance write off is looking like being £800 or so. There are 3 instruments at that - including on used one (which Im not adverse to either, though cant find the same make/model around at present).

From a pure financial perspective, given the general guide of anything over 50% of replacement cost isnt worth repairing - the overall cost of repair plus depreciating resale value should be no more than £400. Ultimately though, if its possible to repair in that range - and the result blended in cosmetically enough Im up for it.

woody · January 2015

If back and sides are ply, this is probably a far eastern made silver series avalon..value about 250 stg...all avalons made in ireland are fully solid woods, and the gold series, which were farmed out to furch, are also fully solid. .

woody · January 2015

If back and sides are ply, this is probably a far eastern made silver series avalon..value about 250 stg...all avalons made in ireland are fully solid woods, and the gold series, which were farmed out to furch, are also fully solid. .

paulmapp8306 · January 2015

I know what it is, which is as you describe. Cost new in 2003 was £650 iir. Might have been £550 as memory is dim. Used price isnt an issue, as its a new for old thing. Its an equivalent new guitar, OR is thats not made the equivalent of the original cost in todays money. Inflation Calculator shows £650 in 2003 is worth £920 today. £550 is worth around £780. Hence - whatever I get from insurance, Im looking at £800 or so for a replacement.

Something similarly spec'd ???? As per the thread. The Faiths are all solid, so over spec'd. The Taylor 214 is ply back/sides so is also similarly spec'd. Finish isnt as nice on the Taylor, not is the sound. Not sure if the build would be better either.

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