Torrefied tops.

BigPaulie · March 2022

What is the received wisdom on torrefied tops?

I'm willing to accept that they subjectively sound "better" than a non torrefied top when compared against another guitar where all other aspects are identical. But do guitar tops continue to mature indefinitely, or does the process plateau after a while?

Would a 200 year old guitar sound better than a 100 year old guitar, all other things being equal?

David Crosby says it takes 8 years for a new guitar to open up and mature fully. Will a non-torrefied guitar "catch up" with a torrefied one or will the torrefied one always have the edge?

Bear in mind that, although torrefaction is by no means a new process, this trend in the modern day guitar market wasn't so common when the guitars that were used on most of our favourite recordings were made. Most of those recordings were just old guitars, some of them weren't even that old at the time.

What say you?

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

Not a fan of torrefied wood myself, especially on acoustics and classics. Most of the time it's done to make a cheaper more easy to source wood look like more expensive and much harder to sourch wood.

TheMadMick · March 2022

I bought a guitar with a Torrified top as it sounded better than anything else I tried in a similar price range.

It continues to change although whether or not that is an improvement, is an open question.

It has little or nothing to do with the look of the wood in my view. It's about the sound.

Tannin · March 2022

I know very little about them and will follow this with interest. I've played a few here and there and never noticed anything special about them one way or another.

The commonly-written theory behind them is that the baking process accelerates the drying out and chemical changes which occur naturally. So, if what the marketing people say about the process is correct, it's simply a short cut along the way to the same destination. In reality, few things are ever that simple - but would the typical player really notice any difference after 10 or 20 years? I doubt it. Hell, I can't say I've noticed much in the way of difference between torrified and non-torrified new guitars hanging on the wall of a shop, never mind 10-year-old ones. I mean the new guitars are all different - they are acoustic guitars and every acoustic guitar is different, and they are mostly different models and body shapes made by different manufacturers - but if there is a night and day difference between torrified and natural, I'm not smart enough to have detected it.

stickyfiddle · March 2022

I haven’t played enough to have a strong opinion, but anecdotally I can confirm that my Atkin 47 is one of the best sounding guitars I’ve ever played

DavidR · March 2022

Its a good point to make BigPaulie. I have no idea. Older acoustics can sound better especially the ones that are or sound like Martins. Efforts to replicate the changes in tops which occur with time (drying+/- structural changes in the wood) sound like they should be a good thing.

I have sometimes wondered what the long term effects of torrefication will be. It seems unlikely, but wouldn't it be interesting if torrefied tops actually sounded different after 30 years to a 30 year old untorrefied top.

jellyroll · March 2022

I have 5 acoustics with torrified tops. I bought them because the higher end models from Martin, Gibson and the like tend to be torrified.

Honestly, I’d put it in the category with “hot hide glue” and “liquid metal bridge pins” of “possibly makes a very small difference that has been hugely exaggerated for marketing purposes.

drofluf · March 2022

I suspect the reason they sound “better” is that as it’s more expensive to produce torrified would it goes into the higher end of a manufacturer’s range and so will be better built than a cheaper instrument in the same range.

However discussions like this will continue forever because quality is subjective in the ears of the listener and, as wood by its nature is inconsistent, it’s impossible to build a set of identical with different tops (or bracing etc.).

But it’s always an interesting debate

wellsyboy · April 2022

stickyfiddle said:

I haven’t played enough to have a strong opinion, but anecdotally I can confirm that my Atkin 47 is one of the best sounding guitars I’ve ever played

+1 for that - my first impression of my recently acquired Atkin D37 Pre War Aged.

TDubs · April 2022

wellsyboy said:

stickyfiddle said:

I haven’t played enough to have a strong opinion, but anecdotally I can confirm that my Atkin 47 is one of the best sounding guitars I’ve ever played

+1 for that - my first impression of my recently acquired Atkin D37 Pre War Aged.

I was on the hunt for an old LG-2 recently. I played a few reissue LG-2s (non torrefied top) and some Atkin 47s (torrefied tops) and the Atkin sounded much better (fuller, brighter etc). I then managed to pickup a late 40s LG-2 and the sound of the Atkin 47 was very similar to this. I don’t know whether the reissue LG-2 would have caught up in sound eventually when matured but the Atkin had ‘that sound’ instantly.

Cryptid · April 2022

Much the same here. My Atkin D37 is the only 'torrefied top' guitar I've spent time with and is the best sounding (and most responsive) dread I've played. I was in the market for a maple jumbo but the shop had a secondhand D37 - I knew I was taking it home after the first strum.

BigPaulie · April 2022

Those Atkins do look amazing!

Wouldn't mind a wee pick on a White Rice model.

Jez6345789 · April 2022

I am not really sure if torrefaction is an accurate description these days.
As I understand it torrefaction was a process using low oxygen steam and a long process. All I tend to see these days is people loading tops into modified commercial kitchen oven basically gas mark 2 for a few hours and calling it done so these tops are baked roasted. So torrefaction that was a technical process is reduced to home cooking. I felt the steam important to help remove some of the chemical rather than baking them in.

As for does it make for better acoustic guitars out the box they sound different is that better if you like the sound yes. If you are a serial flipper and shuffle the deck on a regular basis then it’s saved you Dave Crosby 8 years. But still don’t think just drying wood gives you what 8 years of playing will.

As they say your mileage may vary play some buy what you like but I would not dismiss non heat related wood.

Mellish · April 2022

I'd love to try an Atkin Dread but I can't find any store near me that stocks 'em. If you know, give me a shout please. I'm in South Lincolnshire

icu81b4 · April 2022

This guy discusses the Martin VTS system, from 4mins in

https://youtu.be/sWdMYQk1rPg

I have one of these guitars for recording, sounds great.

malcolmkindness · April 2022

jellyroll said:

I have 5 acoustics with torrified tops. I bought them because the higher end models from Martin, Gibson and the like tend to be torrified.

Honestly, I’d put it in the category with “hot hide glue” and “liquid metal bridge pins” of “possibly makes a very small difference that has been hugely exaggerated for marketing purposes.

I think this is about right. I have no experience with torrified top guitars but I have a torrified top mandolin and it sounds grand but I suspect it would sound similar with a regular top.

Traditionally wood would have been cut and stacked for many years before being used for instrument making, I suppose this practice speeds everything up and saves a lot of money on storage and drying costs.

Mellish · April 2022

I'm following this thread with interest. In a couple of weeks I may trade my beloved Martin HD-28 for an Atkin Essential D. Does that have a torrified top, or have I misunderstood?

jellyroll · April 2022

Mellish said:

I'm following this thread with interest. In a couple of weeks I may trade my beloved Martin HD-28 for an Atkin Essential D. Does that have a torrified top, or have I misunderstood?

I don’t believe the Essential range are torrified. It’s Atkin’s base level range, so no frills. Unless, you’ve found a one-off Custom version.

Edit - as has been pointed out below, my comment above is incorrect. Tops are torrified.

Ricjo · April 2022

Mellish said:

I'm following this thread with interest. In a couple of weeks I may trade my beloved Martin HD-28 for an Atkin Essential D. Does that have a torrified top, or have I misunderstood?

All Atkin tops are torrefied, including the Essential D. You can check the specs here: https://atkinguitars.com/guitar/essential-d/

artiebear · April 2022

TBH I am not sure I totally buy into the whole thing. OK I only have one guitar with any kind of treatment, a Yamaha LJ56 which has some kind of wood development process which those clever sods originally used to open up their higher end classical stringed instruments. As for the guitar, it sounds heavenly, but I do suspect that is because it was well made on the top bench at the Japan custom shop.

On the other hand I have a heap of beautifully crafted / voiced guitars made by skilled hands from shelf stacked and properly dried bits of wood, which sound equally as lovely.

Who really knows ?

wellsyboy · April 2022

Ricjo said:

Mellish said:

I'm following this thread with interest. In a couple of weeks I may trade my beloved Martin HD-28 for an Atkin Essential D. Does that have a torrified top, or have I misunderstood?

All Atkin tops are torrefied, including the Essential D. You can check the specs here: https://atkinguitars.com/guitar/essential-d/

Yep - tops and bracing both baked.

Mellish · April 2022

Cheers lads for the info and the link. Many thanks

Tannin · April 2022

artiebear said:

TBH I am not sure I totally buy into the whole thing. OK I only have one guitar with any kind of treatment, a Yamaha LJ56 which has some kind of wood development process which those clever sods originally used to open up their higher end classical stringed instruments. As for the guitar, it sounds heavenly, but I do suspect that is because it was well made on the top bench at the Japan custom shop.

On the other hand I have a heap of beautifully crafted / voiced guitars made by skilled hands from shelf stacked and properly dried bits of wood, which sound equally as lovely.

Who really knows ?

I suspect that it is one of those many things which form a part of the successful recipe many builders follow, and is equally not a part of the recipe many other successful builders follow. It is perhaps like a tube of burnt umber oil paint - many a successful artist couldn't produce her best work without it, many another doesn't care for it and seldom uses it. Burnt umber paint is thus both an essential and an irrelevance, all depending on who is holding the brush.

My conclusion from this comes down to my "never argue with the chef" rule. If the chef reckons that a dish requires a dash of lemon, that's his business - he's far better qualified to know what works best in his dishes, cooked his way, than I am. And if I don't care for the finished dish, I'm always free to eat somewhere else next time.

I have a guitar on order from a local luthier. Now I really like offset soundholes and believe that they make more sense both structurally and and acoustically than centred ones right in the middle of the weakest part of a guitar body. I daresay Paul would build my new guitar that way if I insisted - but it wouldn't be his best work, and that's the point. I want his best work, and while I'm happy to say what I like and don't like, in the end I have to have the sense to stand back a bit and let him do it his way. If he was a torrified top man (which he isn't), I'd be happy with a torrified top.

Mellish · April 2022

So, decided against a trade, now going part ex. It's between an Atkin Essential D, Atkin J43 Cherry, Aged, or a Lowden in the same price window. Off to GG one day next week to do the deal TBH I'll be sad to see the HD-28 go but if you're fighting a guitar and losing because of nut width and neck profile, what else can you do? Apologies to OP for derailing. Sorry mate

wellsyboy · April 2022

Mellish said:

So, decided against a trade, now going part ex. It's between an Atkin Essential D, Atkin J43 Cherry, Aged, or a Lowden in the same price window. Off to GG one day next week to do the deal TBH I'll be sad to see the HD-28 go but if you're fighting a guitar and losing because of nut width and neck profile, what else can you do? Apologies to OP for derailing. Sorry mate

Let us know what you go for

Mellish · April 2022

@wellsyboy ; of course mate

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Torrefied tops.

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