Torrefied tops. Why not Lyophilised? Who wants to try it?!

DavidR · March 2022

Recent interesting thread about torrefaction of tops - the process of heat treating tops (or variations on that theme) in an attempt to reproduce the tonal features of aging.

Why has no manufacturer tried (or have they!) Lyophilisation, the process of freeze drying under low pressure? Obviously freezing newer wood, even when seasoned, might be structurally disruptive since water expands when frozen. But it would be easier than using extremes of heat on wood - which burns - obviously.

Instead of complicated cooking menues, or wood which has been immersed for a long time in a swamp, or trees felled during a full moon (yes some classical luthiers do that! Its called moonwood or moonspruce apparently) you could undergo some type of industrial freezing or use wood from a tree that has been dead for a long time in a very cold climate. Or something.

Yukon tops anyone?

I bet Taylor would do it.

Just a thought.

Tannin · March 2022

Your name is Bob Taylor and I claim my five pounds.

CavemanGrogg · March 2022

Surely guitars tops that age ''naturally'' don't age in a uniform manner, sweat is highly unlikely to have much contact with the front of the guitar below the sound hole yet alone be rubbed into it, less abrasion and therefore heat will be transfered to the half of the body that is below the sound hole. That must have some effect, just look at how your playing style effects how your fretboard wears/ages. Do you really want a guitar with a top that has aged uniformly?

The more of these artificial aging process I hear about, the more I start to think pretty soon wood will be stored like fast aged wines, namely at a depth of around 20m to 50m in cold salt water, it ages wine apparently 5 times faster than it would age when kept in ideal conditions on the surface in air.

ICBM · March 2022

Guitarists wouldn’t be interested unless it also changes the appearance so it looks old as well.

thermionic · March 2022

You can get the same effect by playing it through a preamp that has a cryogenically treated valve.

TheMadMick · March 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

. . . .
The more of these artificial aging process I hear about, the more I start to think pretty soon wood will be stored like fast aged wines, namely at a depth of around 20m to 50m in cold salt water, it ages wine apparently 5 times faster than it would age when kept in ideal conditions on the surface in air.

Oddly, there was some research done years ago into Stradivarius (sp?) violin wood and it seems it may well have been left in water for quite some time to season. Not sure if salt water would be the thing but it's worth thinking about?

PS Don't get me going about cryogernically treated valves or other things.

Mellish · March 2022

I've heard of felling trees under a full moon and luthiers who subscribe to that. Does it really make a difference? Isn't it better to just select the woods and let nature take its course over time?

GoFish · March 2022

Surely bolt on guitars in the 50s were "Leo-philised"?

Benm39 · March 2022

Oddly, there was some research done years ago into Stradivarius (sp?) violin wood and it seems it may well have been left in water for quite some time to season. Not sure if salt water would be the thing but it's worth thinking about?

PS Don't get me going about cryogernically treated valves or other things.

I recall plum juice may have been used...

But will there be crystal lettuces?

Soupman · March 2022

Trees felled under a full moon? Are we talking Middle Earth, Gandalf & Co?
Given the differences a set of strings can make to the sound, who in God's name could say they could hear the difference in a top made from trees matured over decades or even centuries, just because it was felled under a full moon?
Sounds like a desperate sales pitch - there's just so much snake oil about.

JayGee · March 2022

Soupman said:

Trees felled under a full moon? Are we talking Middle Earth, Gandalf & Co?
Given the differences a set of strings can make to the sound, who in God's name could say they could hear the difference in a top made from trees matured over decades or even centuries, just because it was felled under a full moon?
Sounds like a desperate sales pitch - there's just so much snake oil about.

The people doing stuff like this aren’t just building and selling guitars, they’re selling dreams.

On a certain level there’s no harm and something kind of nice about people investing time and effort into tiny details of process and/or materials which nobody will ever see for no other reason than because it makes the vendor and customer feel good about the transaction, and if it makes the purchaser feel good about the instrument and want to spend time playing or even just looking at and touching) the instrument then that’s lovely.

But for heavens sake lets not pretend (or let other people get away with pretending) it’s anything other than a n internal subjective response to an intangible phenomenon…

I’m kind of conflicted here in that I’m fully invested in the idea of an objective reality which operates according to knowable laws and where (once you’ve implemented the technology) everything is measurable and quantifiable but in some parts of my life (musical instruments, and in particular luthier built guitars) I still want a little romance in my life… :-)

Tannin · March 2022

Actually, there is one sure-fire treatment which works on any acoustic guitar of average or better quality (but it seems to make cheapo and nasty ones worse, in my experience). It is particularly effective on Friday nights (or Saturdays) and unlike linseed oil or plum juice or nitro-cellulose lacquer you apply it internally to the player, not the guitar. But not too much! One or two glasses of rakija makes any good guitar sound better. If you can't find any rakija, substitute with a nice scotch, or even brandy.

bertie · March 2022

ICBM said:

Guitarists wouldn’t be interested unless it also changes the appearance so it looks old as well.

Ive applied this process to my face and body

Kittyfrisk · March 2022

TheMadMick said:

CavemanGrogg said:

. . . .
The more of these artificial aging process I hear about, the more I start to think pretty soon wood will be stored like fast aged wines, namely at a depth of around 20m to 50m in cold salt water, it ages wine apparently 5 times faster than it would age when kept in ideal conditions on the surface in air.

Oddly, there was some research done years ago into Stradivarius (sp?) violin wood and it seems it may well have been left in water for quite some time to season. Not sure if salt water would be the thing but it's worth thinking about?

PS Don't get me going about cryogernically treated valves or other things.

Sinker redwood anyone

Kilgore · March 2022

If you put a guitar on a sunbed for a few hours it torrefies it and gives it a lovely sunburst finish.

fretmeister · March 2022

I think Sandberg and Yamaha do the heat thing for their basses - along with a vibration treatment.

Never heard of the cold approach though.

Sounds cool.

grappagreen · March 2022

JayGee said:

Soupman said:

Trees felled under a full moon? Are we talking Middle Earth, Gandalf & Co?
Given the differences a set of strings can make to the sound, who in God's name could say they could hear the difference in a top made from trees matured over decades or even centuries, just because it was felled under a full moon?
Sounds like a desperate sales pitch - there's just so much snake oil about.

The people doing stuff like this aren’t just building and selling guitars, they’re selling dreams.

On a certain level there’s no harm and something kind of nice about people investing time and effort into tiny details of process and/or materials which nobody will ever see for no other reason than because it makes the vendor and customer feel good about the transaction, and if it makes the purchaser feel good about the instrument and want to spend time playing or even just looking at and touching) the instrument then that’s lovely.

But for heavens sake lets not pretend (or let other people get away with pretending) it’s anything other than a n internal subjective response to an intangible phenomenon…

I’m kind of conflicted here in that I’m fully invested in the idea of an objective reality which operates according to knowable laws and where (once you’ve implemented the technology) everything is measurable and quantifiable but in some parts of my life (musical instruments, and in particular luthier built guitars) I still want a little romance in my life… :-)

You won't be popular around here son... I couldn't agree more..

Cirrus · March 2022

Surely If it's the opposite process it'd have the opposite effect; a guitar that *never* breaks in or opens up and always has that new guitar, congested midrange and overly tight bottom tone?

Mellish · March 2022

@Tannin ; - yes and it doesn't stop at the guitar. It can make the singer believe they are a sweet-throated songbird!

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Torrefied tops. Why not Lyophilised? Who wants to try it?!

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