New member looking for a new acoustic/classical

CavemanGrogg · February 2022

Hi new member, been reading for a while. As the title suggests I'm looking for help or suggestions with purchasing a new either acoustic, classical guitar, or perhaps some combination of the two. I've got a budget of around £5,500.00, I don't need to spend every penny though.

How to describe what I'm looking for? I'm classically trained, ABRSM grades 1-8 through both Trinity College and the London Colege pf Music, but that was many a moons ago before my retirement. A few years ago I flirted with electrics, Gibsons, Epiphones, Fenders, Ibanez, Gretsch, Ricks, Sqiures, and numerious other brands I've left out, and no matter what brand, what price range, none seemed to ''fit'', it was the same with steel string acoustics. Though with the steel string acoustics I simply loved the sound of my Taylor 914ce https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/914ce#specs, though found besides the neck being too narrow for my liking or style of playing, I also found it to be a little bright and neutral sounding. I've since spent time with a Taylor 312ce-N https://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/312ce-n, and again found the neck too narrow for my liking - I'm used to the width and shape of a classical guitar neck, and the guitar too neutral, bright and small sounding. And I keep find myself picking upeith my old Yamaha from my student days or my Ramirez, and never anything else.

So I guess what I'm looking for is a 914ce shape and sized body guitar, most likely with a solid cedar top and fan bracing, either solid rosewood back and sides or solid mahogany back and sides, basically I looking for a warm, open and more bass sound. With comfort bevels. Now here where it gets interesting, I'm torn between getting a traditional 5mm wide nut and traditional slot headstoch, with 20 frets, and joined a the 14th fret instead of the 12th. Or to go with a classical neck dimension, nut width and neck profile, for steel strings, not a slotted headsock. Or lastly a some what strange suggestion, a guitar that is designed to take both steel strings and ball end nylon strings?

I understand that I'm basicall loking at getting a custom built guitar, so with that in mind I bought myslef a Hanika CutPro PC https://www.hanika.de/en/guitars/recital-line/cutpro-pc.html to play around with, I've never had a classical with a cut away before, to get a feel for Hanika's guitars. So far I'vee been looking at Hanika, really like the open pore finish they offer and D-1 neck profile, specifically a variation on their Fusion model. Avalon, heard really good things about their guitars, and the one that's drawn the most of my skepticisn Furch's Rainbow series of guitars. Does anybody have any suggestions, or ideas, Iunderstand this is not something that's going to hae either a simple or fast answer, nor a simple or fast process.

Apologies for such a long first post.

Gilly · February 2022

It’d be worth asking on the Delcamp classical guitar forum as well if you’re looking for a classical. With that budget you could get a hand-made guitar from a good luthier in the U.K. You’d be able to get it made to your exact requirements and choose the wood etc.

Supportact · February 2022

Welcome @CavemanGrogg. I play classical as well (although not to your level, I'm about grade 4/5). I don't know the answer to your question but I'd be quite interested in any opinions. I'm using a pretty basic student guitar at the moment (Santos Martinez brand) but I've kind of promised myself an upgrade if I keep improving. So maybe I'll be looking out for one in the future, be interested to hear what people recommend.

earwighoney · February 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

Or lastly a some what strange suggestion, a guitar that is designed to take both steel strings and ball end nylon strings?

I think it is possible to put nylon strings on a steel string guitar, but it won't sound fantastic as steel strings require heavier bracing so nylon strings will never get the soundboard moving as much. And if you put on steel strings on a nylon string guitar, that could lead to structural problems for the guitar in the long run.

IMO, I think you are better off getting two guitars, one classical and one steel string.

So have you already bought a new classical guitar? The Hanika in question?

I'm not entirely sure what you are after, do you want a steel string guitar with a nut wider than the Taylor? Do you want a steel string guitar with the nut width closer to a classical guitar?

Have you ever considered a 12 fret 00/000, that would be closer to the dimensions of a classical guitars and ergonomics as well.

In your budget you could probably find a luthier to build you a guitar with the specs you are after, whether you are willing to wait for it could be another thing.

If I was after a steel string guitar with your specs, I would ask Brook to make their Carey model in the usual dimensions of a classical guitar, but braced for steel strings.

Gilly · February 2022

Philip Woodfield makes amazing guitars and looks just within your budget. He might have quite a long wait list though.

https://woodfieldguitars.com/

TheMadMick · February 2022

I have an Auden Emily Rose for sale and it's a lot like a steel strung classical. Might suit and well under budget.

Take a look in Acoustics£ - happy to send pics if that would help. PM me you e mail if you'd like that.

CavemanGrogg · February 2022

Supportact said:

Welcome @CavemanGrogg. I play classical as well (although not to your level, I'm about grade 4/5). I don't know the answer to your question but I'd be quite interested in any opinions. I'm using a pretty basic student guitar at the moment (Santos Martinez brand) but I've kind of promised myself an upgrade if I keep improving. So maybe I'll be looking out for one in the future, be interested to hear what people recommend.

This is what this guitar will be for me, now that I'm retired I want to go back and do both my Trinity College of Music and Lomdon College of Music grade 8 exams, and hopefully in 2023 dothe fellowshipin music I didnt have the opportunity to do in my youth.

Right now, I'm leaning towards either a customised Hanika Fusion https://www.hanika.de/en/guitars/professional-line/fusion-pc.html , or either an Avalon Arc2 - 310B https://www.avalonguitars.com/arc/2310B with some slight changes in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both or the Avalon Ard Ri 1-320 https://www.avalonguitars.com/ard-ri/1320, again with some changes and again in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both. The Furch, I've not really been impressed bywhat Ive seen or heard, nut I've noexperience of them in person.

Gilly said:

It’d be worth asking on the Delcamp classical guitar forum as well if you’re looking for a classical. With that budget you could get a hand-made guitar from a good luthier in the U.K. You’d be able to get it made to your exact requirements and choose the wood etc.

I've been following Delcamp for a while now, haven't posted there yet as it gives me the impression of not being too relevent to U.K. based people.

CavemanGrogg · February 2022

earwighoney said:

CavemanGrogg said:

Or lastly a some what strange suggestion, a guitar that is designed to take both steel strings and ball end nylon strings?

I think it is possible to put nylon strings on a steel string guitar, but it won't sound fantastic as steel strings require heavier bracing so nylon strings will never get the soundboard moving as much. And if you put on steel strings on a nylon string guitar, that could lead to structural problems for the guitar in the long run.

IMO, I think you are better off getting two guitars, one classical and one steel string.

So have you already bought a new classical guitar? The Hanika in question?

I'm not entirely sure what you are after, do you want a steel string guitar with a nut wider than the Taylor? Do you want a steel string guitar with the nut width closer to a classical guitar?

Have you ever considered a 12 fret 00/000, that would be closer to the dimensions of a classical guitars and ergonomics as well.

In your budget you could probably find a luthier to build you a guitar with the specs you are after, whether you are willing to wait for it could be another thing.

If I was after a steel string guitar with your specs, I would ask Brook to make their Carey model in the usual dimensions of a classical guitar, but braced for steel strings.

Yes I bought the Hanika a few months ago for something different to play and to get a feel for Hanika classical guitars when I started tobegin the search for what will hoefully be my dream guitar.

digitalkettle · February 2022

I wonder if anyone has actually had their *forever* 'dream guitar' made for them?

I had a classical guitar built for me some years ago. I went down to the guy's workshop, had a nice chat, and chose some wood (this is a symbolic guitar building 'rite of passage': they're all nice pieces). While we were talking, I quickly realised that I was better off letting the luthier do his thing and not getting in the way of that process. Granted, a classical guitar typically entails less variety than a steel string or an electric but I wanted this luthier's best guitar...my job was to wait 1-2 years then play the crap out of it. In the end, aside from the woods, I chose the machine heads and the case

So in answer to my own question, I think you find a guitar and spend a lot of time with it...earning your 'dream guitar'. Then, maybe you want another 'dream guitar'...or maybe you realise the hunt is the best part

Mellish · February 2022

@CavemanGrogg ; I'll leave it for others to guide you but welcome to TFB

Supportact · February 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

Supportact said:

Welcome @CavemanGrogg. I play classical as well (although not to your level, I'm about grade 4/5). I don't know the answer to your question but I'd be quite interested in any opinions. I'm using a pretty basic student guitar at the moment (Santos Martinez brand) but I've kind of promised myself an upgrade if I keep improving. So maybe I'll be looking out for one in the future, be interested to hear what people recommend.

This is what this guitar will be for me, now that I'm retired I want to go back and do both my Trinity College of Music and Lomdon College of Music grade 8 exams, and hopefully in 2023 dothe fellowshipin music I didnt have the opportunity to do in my youth.

Right now, I'm leaning towards either a customised Hanika Fusion https://www.hanika.de/en/guitars/professional-line/fusion-pc.html , or either an Avalon Arc2 - 310B https://www.avalonguitars.com/arc/2310B with some slight changes in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both or the Avalon Ard Ri 1-320 https://www.avalonguitars.com/ard-ri/1320, again with some changes and again in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both. The Furch, I've not really been impressed bywhat Ive seen or heard, nut I've noexperience of them in person.

Gilly said:

It’d be worth asking on the Delcamp classical guitar forum as well if you’re looking for a classical. With that budget you could get a hand-made guitar from a good luthier in the U.K. You’d be able to get it made to your exact requirements and choose the wood etc.

I've been following Delcamp for a while now, haven't posted there yet as it gives me the impression of not being too relevent to U.K. based people.

I had quite a long break from it as well (classical that is, I've always played the guitar since I was a kid). I passed my grade 4 when I was about 15, but then shortly after that started wanting to be in bands and play electric. Then during the lockdown decided to see if I could remember how to read music, and found I really enjoyed playing those old grade pieces!

Those Hanika guitars do look really nice. I think I'd like to be able to play a guitar before buying so I doubt I'd get one custom made. My favourite steel string acoustic is a Fylde, and I understand they do some nylon string ones too so I would consider one of them, even though they don't specialise in classical guitars.

TDubs · February 2022

earwighoney said:

CavemanGrogg said:

Or lastly a some what strange suggestion, a guitar that is designed to take both steel strings and ball end nylon strings?

Martin made the 0-16 and 0-21 NYs in the 60s that could take either steel or nylons. Don’t think it really took off and most of them you see are strung with steels. FYI.

ToneControl · March 2022

CavemanGrogg said:

Supportact said:

Welcome @CavemanGrogg. I play classical as well (although not to your level, I'm about grade 4/5). I don't know the answer to your question but I'd be quite interested in any opinions. I'm using a pretty basic student guitar at the moment (Santos Martinez brand) but I've kind of promised myself an upgrade if I keep improving. So maybe I'll be looking out for one in the future, be interested to hear what people recommend.

This is what this guitar will be for me, now that I'm retired I want to go back and do both my Trinity College of Music and Lomdon College of Music grade 8 exams, and hopefully in 2023 dothe fellowshipin music I didnt have the opportunity to do in my youth.

Right now, I'm leaning towards either a customised Hanika Fusion https://www.hanika.de/en/guitars/professional-line/fusion-pc.html , or either an Avalon Arc2 - 310B https://www.avalonguitars.com/arc/2310B with some slight changes in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both or the Avalon Ard Ri 1-320 https://www.avalonguitars.com/ard-ri/1320, again with some changes and again in either full classical, steel string, or a combination of both. The Furch, I've not really been impressed bywhat Ive seen or heard, nut I've noexperience of them in person.

Gilly said:

It’d be worth asking on the Delcamp classical guitar forum as well if you’re looking for a classical. With that budget you could get a hand-made guitar from a good luthier in the U.K. You’d be able to get it made to your exact requirements and choose the wood etc.

I've been following Delcamp for a while now, haven't posted there yet as it gives me the impression of not being too relevent to U.K. based people.

I'm the biggest fan of Avalon, pretty sure I have bought more of them than anyone anywhere
I'd definitely recommend phoning them up and getting a custom acoustic made
But... the only Avalon I have sold on was a nylon strung Fusion2–20CN
The reason? I thought I'd like a radiused fingerboard, turned out I didn't, but more importantly, they are built with heavy bracing, to resist feedback, when playing live, and so when played acoustically, it was therefore lacking.
Avalon don't usually make classicals, although I'm sure Balazs could make a great one with light bracing.
I wonder what they'd do, classicals are normally built from the front upwards

I'm guessing that Hanika Fusion being shallow, it's less likely to have the full classical sound

I'd like to check if you've tried any lattice-braced guitars, or any double-topped ones (with nomex)

Best place to try these is the London Guitar studio
Try the Stephen HIll and Yulong Guo, to see if you like these any better than the traditional designs that you are used to

Avalon will do up to 46mm at the standard price, but charge extra for wider than that.
There are some 1 7/8 inch nut (about 47.6mm) acoustics around - usually slope shouldered dreads. I have a Larrivee one, which I like for more classical-type arrangements. Probably worth trying one before you custom-order

On Avalon 320s:
I have an L1-320C baritone 12 fret, with a wide nut, it sounds amazing, I think @thomasross20 has the spruce non-baritone version, we're both very happy

Tannin · March 2022

I missed this thread the first time around. I have two three suggestions for you:

(1) Lakewood. Lakewood will build any model you like in your desired neck width. They make a wide range of lovely guitars, and their prices are very reasonable. Start with https://www.lakewood-guitars.co.uk/seven_reasons.php Lakewood have a broad range of standard models, any one of which you can order in your choice of timbers, decoration levels, bindings, neck length, headstock type, and a host of other options. Oh, and 43mm, 44mm, 45mm, 46mm, 48mm or 50mm nuts. You can see all of these on your screen as you flick through the options, and the price updates as you go. And all of this is their standard range. On top of that you can have a full custom build, though there isn't much a sensible person could want that isn't already on the table.

Lakewoods are rare in my country, I've only had the pleasure of playing one, a lovely 12-fret concert-size guitar in European Spruce and mahogany with a 46mm nut. I very nearly bought it but was put off by the slotted headstock. (Isn't it funny the little things that sway one's judgement? For me it's slotted headstocks and sunburst finishes, especially those horrible black Gibson-style ones. I know perfectly well that neither thing matters in any practical way - well, OK, slot heads are a pain in the arse to string and tune, but hardly the end of the world - but somehow either one is enough to cause wallet failure and I walk away.) Slot head aside, it was a lovely guitar, and I've had it in mind to order a Lakewood ever since.

(2) 12-strings. Virtually all 12-strings come with 50mm or 48mm nuts. Take the extra strings off and you are good to go. They tend to be more solidly braced, but there is no harm in that. You get a little bit of natural compression which helps produce a more balanced, listenable sound. And nearly every maker has 12-strings as standard, just walk into a shop and buy one.

(3) On to the Taylor sound that you like but find "too bright and neutral". You sound like a man who needs either a Maton or a Guild in his life. Both "house sounds" are reminiscent of the Taylor sound but warmer and not so "bright and neutral". Unfortunately, neither company makes a wider neck unless you go full-on custom shop. Of course, if you want to combine suggestions (2) and (3), Guild does make the best 12-string in the known universe.

Tannin · March 2022

Of course, you could always get one of these: https://www.stollguitars.de/en/double-fun-reversible-double-neck-guitar/

GTC · March 2022

It might not be a bad idea to have an exploratory chat with a luthier who makes both nylon strung and steel strung guitars. I have had a steel strung (Taw) and nylon-strung (Cary) from Brook down in Devon - and both are excellent instruments. Simon and Andy are always happy to talk.

The problem I see in having a guitar that will take both steel and nylon strings is that the bridge saddle slot compensation angle might need to be different for each. However you can get adjustable acoustic bridges although they are not that common.

Hanika - very nice guitars. I have a custom high end model but would be very reluctant to try steel strings on it.

On steel strings - if you wanted to try out a wide-fretboard acoustic without breaking the bank then the Blueridge Historic Parlor series might be worth looking at (around £1k, depending on the model). China made but, IMO, they outperform any Martin 00 V I've seen. 48mm nut, width, slotted headstock, 12 frets to the body, all-solid woods. There are some available at Hobgoblin Music and on Reverb.

I've always wanted to like Taylor, but , with the exception of the T5z hybrid, I've never had one that I haven't been disappointed by. The nylon-strung 214ce I had from new was a bit of a dog - and came with the worst set-up I've ever witnessed on a new guitar.

Mellish · March 2022

@Tannin ; - I don't have an issue with sunbursts. I'm not crazy about slotted headstocks but can live with 'em. But if I see side-mounted controls for pickups, I'm out of there. When I'm strumming I want to look down and see gorgeous rosewood, mahogany, maple, koa, anything but controls. Like you say, it's plain silly how little things can turn us off

Tannin · March 2022

^ Ahh, but your silly turn-off has no practical impact on the sound or utility of the instrument, where mine ... er ...

... as you were.

ToneControl · March 2022

I dislike slotted headstocks
Every time I change the strings its 50% likely that the guitar will draw blood

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