Irish Acoustics - Suitable for blues/rock or a one trick pony?

Rebar · August 2021

Hi All,

I thought I'd contact the forum for your collective wisdom.

I've recently sold a very nice slope shouldered Patrick James Eggle and am in the market for a slightly smaller new acoustic (OM/Concert size). I think for my next acquisition I would like to try something from one of the Irish builders such as Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc.

However, I have heard that these are only really suitable for finger picking and sound poor when strumming and flat picking. As I play mostly blues/rock are these even worthwhile considering?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

GoldenEraGuitars · August 2021

Rebar said:

Hi All,

I thought I'd contact the forum for your collective wisdom.

I've recently sold a very nice slope shouldered Patrick James Eggle and am in the market for a slightly smaller new acoustic (OM/Concert size). I think for my next acquisition I would like to try something from one of the Irish builders such as Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc.

However, I have heard that these are only really suitable for finger picking and sound poor when strumming and flat picking. As I play mostly blues/rock are these even worthwhile considering?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

That’s quite amusing, if you don’t mind me saying?

You cant use a plectrum with an acoustic guitar made in Ireland? Who fed you this?

ArchtopDave · August 2021

You need to try one out. Lowdens have their own sound, which you may, or may not, like. I have a Lowden 'O' which is fine from my point of view for strumming etc.

Rebar · August 2021

GoldenEraGuitars said:

Rebar said:

Hi All,

I thought I'd contact the forum for your collective wisdom.

I've recently sold a very nice slope shouldered Patrick James Eggle and am in the market for a slightly smaller new acoustic (OM/Concert size). I think for my next acquisition I would like to try something from one of the Irish builders such as Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc.

However, I have heard that these are only really suitable for finger picking and sound poor when strumming and flat picking. As I play mostly blues/rock are these even worthwhile considering?

Thanks in advance for your advice.

That’s quite amusing, if you don’t mind me saying?

You cant use a plectrum with an acoustic guitar made in Ireland? Who fed you this?

There's a difference between 'able' and 'suitable'.

Rocker · August 2021

They are costly but have you considered Emerald Guitars?

ToneControl · August 2021

Lowdens and the Lowden family of guitars (avalon, McIlroy, etc) have more overtones than usual.
The bracing and design, and the fact they sand the inside of the guitar makes them do this.

I have some, and they are different, and are very good for fingerpicking, especially in some styles

Avalon also make an "Americana" range, with more traditional Amercican style bracing, I have one of these. There are less overtones, and it is better for some more complicated arrangements for which extra harmonics can reduce focus (e.g. a complicated acoustic version of "Yesterday" that I like to play

I certainly wouldn't say that default-bracing Lowdens and Avalons "sound poor" when strummed/picked, they just sound different. You might well love the sound of them the way you play - best to try one

I would recommend Rosewood and spruce if you are playing hard with a pick, ideally a stiff spruce like Adirondack.
Many people prefer dreads when playing loud with a pick, but I assume you have your reasons for reducing the size of your intstrument

richardhomer · August 2021

I’ve played a number of Lowdens and really wanted to like them.

The suggestion you try some is the best advice you’ll get.

For me, they don’t work - they are voiced very differently from Martins and the like. Only you can make the judgement as to whether they work for you.

wellsyboy · August 2021

Surely by going “Irish” you are limiting your choices if you want a good strummer/fingerpicker for blues/rock - there are companies like Atkin (great british builder) who make fantastic guitars just for this - the Atkin LG47 is one such guitar (if you are after a smaller body guitar)

malcolmkindness · August 2021

Lowden, McIlroy and Avalon are all great guitars, but none of them would be my first choice for blues/rock!
Ciaran McNally makes guitars that are more mid Atlantic in sound, or perhaps the Avalon Americana might suit you.
Although, I agree with wellsyboy that an Atkin might be cheaper and a better choice all round.
Paul Brady plays a Lowden in a rock style, perhaps you can find a video on YouTube.

Aqmltd · August 2021

I have a lowden with a cedar top. Lovely guitar, made for finger picking. Sounds great strummed to, but if you give it too much gusto, it tends to clip out.

ICBM · August 2021

They don't sound poor, but they sound extremely different from a traditional American-voiced acoustic and won't give you the classic blues/rock strummed - or even fingerpicked - sound at all.

I once had a Lowden O10, which I bought on a whim because I was offered it cheap due to some damage - a beautifully made guitar, which no doubt sounded fantastic. But not when I played it. I actually preferred an old Hondo all-ply Everly Brothers copy I had at the same time which I picked up in a junk shop for £80. Really... it just suited my playing style and the sound I wanted better - Neil Young, basically - so I sold the Lowden, and don't regret it. I do actually miss the Hondo though!

CloudNine · August 2021

Have owned a few Lowdens, from basic models right up to a really nice sounding F50 Redwood/Koa model. Having played side by side for a good while with my trusty J45 Legend, I concluded that the J45 was 95% as good to my ears for finger picking, maybe actually better for most things I would play, but the Lowden was only 10% of the J45 for strumming, flat picking, everything else. This is no doubt about the sounds in my head and the records I have listened to my whole life. I get that there will be some styles of finger picking that work with that Celtic sound etc, but anyone who suggests that a Lowden will do all that, as well as satisfy your requirements folk, rock, country, banging out some Neil Young tunes, etc. etc., is imo leading you very much astray. Some will clearly disagree, but for me, they ARE kind of one trick ponies.

I sat in Guitar Guitar once and played all the Lowdens they had for a few hours. A lot of very very average sounding boxes. The only guitar that was genuinely brilliant, was a used S model, Brazilian back and sides. Not a guitar that I wanted or needed, and whilst I have never really felt Brazilian to always be better than other woods (although it IS almost always better than EIR), this one was pure magic. Notes felt like they were leaping out before I had plucked them. I bought a Bourgeois dread though, then went home and banged out some Neil Young tunes.

tomjax · August 2021

Having owned both Lowden and Mcilroy, I don't think they have the same voicing, and I find my Mcilroy A30 great for all round playing. To me, blues tunes sound great on it. I still think my J45 is the best guitar on the planet for belting out a rhythm piece, but the Mcilroy is definitely a match for it in finger picking blues.

andymo · August 2021

I have a Lowden F32 (EIR/Spruce). It's not the classic Lowden sound as it's very bright and quite harsh compared to the other combinations. I really don't like it for strumming but it's likely a personal thing being used to more "American" guitars for that kinda thing. The Lowden is almost too sensitive and certainly not warm. The idea that Lowdens are perfect for different tunings rings true with me. Their voicing really lends itself to that.

In brief, you can strum a Lowden but it's not for me!

thermionic · August 2021

This is a subject that has intrigued me for a while. They’re associated with Celtic music but I haven’t heard of Irish manufacturers (where, arguably, more well-known music originates), they’re all from Northern Ireland. Is it all down to legacy companies originating from George Lowden?

Anyway, I have noticed guitarists in several Welsh folk acts using them - most of the time they’re used as heavily strummed rhythm instruments, with fiddle, accordion etc taking centre stage. Not really used for fingerpicking.

Rebar · August 2021

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far - your advice and insights are extremely welcome.

Based on what people are saying, it looks like Lowdens can be hit and miss and that McIlroy seems to be more consistent in terms of flexibility of musical styles. I'll also check out the Avalon Americana range which sound like a good compromise. I'm also very grateful to @malcolmkindness for his suggestion to check out Ciaran McNally - it turns out he's about two miles away from me (although I'd never heard of him before)!

It's already feeling like I'll be leaning towards Martin, Atkin, etc based on my musical tastes and the advice above. However, I'll try out a few Lowdens and Avalons in the near future when I next have the chance - just to satisfy my curiosity.

malcolmkindness · August 2021

thermionic said:

This is a subject that has intrigued me for a while. They’re associated with Celtic music but I haven’t heard of Irish manufacturers (where, arguably, more well-known music originates), they’re all from Northern Ireland. Is it all down to legacy companies originating from George Lowden?

Anyway, I have noticed guitarists in several Welsh folk acts using them - most of the time they’re used as heavily strummed rhythm instruments, with fiddle, accordion etc taking centre stage. Not really used for fingerpicking.

Just as a point of information, musically Ireland is all the one country, there is some excellent traditional music to be found north of the border.
As far as manufacturers go, I know several luthiers in the ROI who will make you a guitar if you approach them but they mostly make mandolins, Irish bouzoukis, etc.
because they have established a market there.

DavidR · August 2021

I think you have a specific idea of what you mean rebar.

As others have pointed out, 'Irish Guitars' would lump together lots of makers, not least the amazingly innovative Emerald Guitars.

I'm not sure there's a specific Irish Guitar which is best for playing Irish music. If anything characterises Celtic music it's DADGAD tuning!! That can make it sound a bit 'different' sometimes.

pretty maid milking a cow d b rance results on SoundCloud

Rebar · September 2021

DavidR said:

I think you have a specific idea of what you mean rebar.

As others have pointed out, 'Irish Guitars' would lump together lots of makers, not least the amazingly innovative Emerald Guitars.

I'm not sure there's a specific Irish Guitar which is best for playing Irish music. If anything characterises Celtic music it's DADGAD tuning!! That can make it sound a bit 'different' sometimes.

pretty maid milking a cow d b rance results on SoundCloud

You are quite correct @DavidR . When I referred to 'Irish Guitars', I was primarily referring to those which owe their heritage to George Lowden (eg Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc). These have a specific tone and my original query was to gauge whether or not they could lend themselves to music beyond that which could be described as 'Celtic', as some people seem to think that they have harmonics which tend to lead to break up when strummed heavily. However, I think it's best if I just try a few and see how I feel (which is generally true irrespective of whatever type of guitar is under consideration as everyone's experience is different).

I am Irish and am familiar with Irish music. However, it's not really what I'm into and I just wanted to see what owners of Lowden(esque) acoustics thought of how suitable their instruments were for blues, acoustic rock, etc. Thanks too for the heads up on Emerald Guitars. They look interesting, although I have more traditional tastes and therefore feel that they're not for me.

Moominpapa · September 2021

@Rebar It's been nearly fifteen days now, man - what's the hold up? where's our NGD post? ;-)

Rebar · September 2021

Moominpapa said:

@Rebar It's been nearly fifteen days now, man - what's the hold up? where's our NGD post? ;-)

@Moominpapa a combination of slim pickings and an increasing workload are to blame! I'm keeping an eye out for something tasty but nothing has turned up yet.

BillDL · September 2021

@Rebar I commend your desire to buy from "locally" designed and produced guitar makers, but as you will probably already know, many of the companies that started out small and bespoke now have their instruments (or some of their component parts) made "overseas". Even some of those who don't outsource, but have become bigger over time, have mechanised a lot of their processes. Does it matter if something is CNCd or thicknessed in a machine rather than being carved with hand tools? I don't think so, but it's all part of the mystique of being "hand made". It all depends on how much you can afford to spend or justify, or how unique you want your guitar to be. If I had the money I would commission a guitar from Scottish-based luthiers like Jimmy Moon in Glasgow, or Taran Guitars of Pittenweem, or Bailey Guitars of Maybole (Mark started working at Patrick Eggle), or Ryan Gibson of Falkirk, or Billy Findlayson (the "tech" at GuitarGuitar, Glasgow), or some of the other fine craftspeople I could visit in person and fine-tune my wood choices, construction methods and dimensions.

Given that I can only afford and financially justify off-the-peg acoustics, the first aspect I would look at is the wood used and the size of the body. As mentioned by CloudNine, the wood used can have a massive bearing on the sound the guitar creates, but a smaller bodied mahogany body acoustic can sound very different to a larger bodied one. If anything exemplifies the differences in wood, my two Cordoba Mini guitars do. One is rosewood bodied and the other is mahogany bodied. They sound totally different despite being the same dimensions, same soundboard wood and construction, and having the same strings. Upscale that to a full-sized guitar and start changing the body size, the soundboard wood from spruce to cedar or mahogany, and even the bridge wood and you have a huge range of variants that affect the sound - all from off-the-peg guitars. You really need to go and try out acoustic guitars if you are going to shell out more than about £375 for one.

There is no doubt that most, if not all of us, are primarily guided towards our choices by aesthetics. I have owned two Seagull acoustic guitars (sub-brand of Godin). They were both beautiful guitars, but I could never get to like the skinny headstocks and it affected my enjoyment of them and I eventually sold them. On the other hand, I owned a Takamine that ticked all the boxes aesthetically but I never liked the sound.

My favourite acoustics at the current time are Sigma, and I think they represent just about the best value for my money. Nothing fancy, just consistantly well made and nice sounding across their range which has grown to include all the common sizes and shapes in different wood choices, but you might not like the man-made fingerboards they use on the lower priced ones. I do. The mahogany top ones have a much more mellow and folksy sound than the spruce-topped ones.

Smellyfingers · September 2021

I've got an Avalon and I am not sure is fair to say that they,or by extension Lowdens are 'one trick ponies'

Having played Martins, Gibsons etc it is true that these more mass produced guitars are easier to play well out of the box or in a brief shop demo.

I find the Avalon is more demanding of strumming technique, and encourages me think about being more careful about the way I hit the strings. Subject to that the sound produced is not inferior the big US brands -just somewhat different.

Also compared with even a USA gibson, the construction quality of Avalon is in a different league.

malcolmkindness · September 2021

Smellyfingers said:

I've got an Avalon and I am not sure is fair to say that they,or by extension Lowdens are 'one trick ponies'

Having played Martins, Gibsons etc it is true that these more mass produced guitars are easier to play well out of the box or in a brief shop demo.

I find the Avalon is more demanding of strumming technique, and encourages me think about being more careful about the way I hit the strings. Subject to that the sound produced is not inferior the big US brands -just somewhat different.

Also compared with even a USA gibson, the construction quality of Avalon is in a different league.

Modern Avalons are superb guitars, no doubt.

mdfire · September 2021

If you have the time to wait and want a local guitar, then get one made for you. I had one made last year by Murphy Custom Guitars in Drogheda. Incredible instrument, made exactly the way i wanted and cheaper than a Lowden. I sold my Lowden when i got it. However, I wouldnt agree with all the comments above about Lowdens not being suitable for strumming. Its a different sound to Martins etc. Someone did a comparison between the American and European sound here (Collings v Lowden)

jaymenon · September 2021

Here's a one take recording in front of a iPhone mic - no processing, pretty raw - may help you see how a Lowden O sounds...?

jaymenon · September 2021

jaymenon · September 2021

The second one's with a plectrum

Tannin · September 2021

I have never played an Irish guitar. We don't see them much in this part of the world (other than those Sheeran things which presumably don't count). There is the odd Lowden sold here and there around the country, but they are rare and expensive. In general, if I wanted an Irish guitar I'd have to import it myself, unseen and unplayed. One of these days I'll get to try one.

Something I notice (in this thread and others) is a range of views as regards different sounds. (The "Irish sound", the "American sound", and so on.) I'd make three points: first that it is plain ignorant to regard any one of these sound families as "the" sound, with all others counting as some sort of inferior country cousin. I dare say we all have our favourite sound, our "home" sound family that we want to return to again and again, but (making my second point now) the "other" sound families can and should be something we celebrate and enjoy. In music, diversity is life!

In my own little collection, I have four guitars from my "home" sound family, two with the "American sound", and the Thunderhawk which is unique and unclassifiable. Would I like to try out and maybe add an "Irish sound" instrument? Too bloody right I would! (In a little while it will be late enough to play Jaymenon's clips and hear it for myself without waking up the household.)

Last point: musicians (including me) tend to get a bit precious about what you can play on what instrument. Yes, I mostly reach for one type of guitar to play this tune, a different one for that other tune, but it is perfectly possible to play anything on any of them - and it is an unqualified good thing to do so every now and then, it teaches you things about the instrument, about the music you are playing, and above all about your own ability to adapt and find a way to make things work.

ToneControl · September 2021

Rebar said:

DavidR said:

I think you have a specific idea of what you mean rebar.

As others have pointed out, 'Irish Guitars' would lump together lots of makers, not least the amazingly innovative Emerald Guitars.

I'm not sure there's a specific Irish Guitar which is best for playing Irish music. If anything characterises Celtic music it's DADGAD tuning!! That can make it sound a bit 'different' sometimes.

pretty maid milking a cow d b rance results on SoundCloud

You are quite correct @DavidR . When I referred to 'Irish Guitars', I was primarily referring to those which owe their heritage to George Lowden (eg Lowden, Avalon, McIlroy, etc). These have a specific tone and my original query was to gauge whether or not they could lend themselves to music beyond that which could be described as 'Celtic', as some people seem to think that they have harmonics which tend to lead to break up when strummed heavily. However, I think it's best if I just try a few and see how I feel (which is generally true irrespective of whatever type of guitar is under consideration as everyone's experience is different).

I am Irish and am familiar with Irish music. However, it's not really what I'm into and I just wanted to see what owners of Lowden(esque) acoustics thought of how suitable their instruments were for blues, acoustic rock, etc. Thanks too for the heads up on Emerald Guitars. They look interesting, although I have more traditional tastes and therefore feel that they're not for me.

I'm not sure I'd say that lowden-style guitars are unsuitable for strumming. It's all down to your ears and technique.
I have several Avalons, and if anything, preferred the "Irish" style ones for most playing, but eventually realised that the Americana one was clearer sounding for complex classical-style arrangements, although nothing like as much as a Sobell

I think you need to try some different guitars

I'd recommend also trying Bourgeois and Goodall, who I personally believe are far beyond any normal Gibson or Martin
Santa Cruz is also worth trying, but I suspect those would be better for fingerpickers

ToneControl · September 2021

btw
Allegedly, Lowden derived his bracing from Fylde in England, who still make small-workshop guitars much cheaper than Lowden. Could be worth trying those too

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Irish Acoustics - Suitable for blues/rock or a one trick pony?

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