12 fret Acoustics with cutaway

dean111music · February 2020

Hello

I'm going to be off to Coda in the next few weeks to try a loads of acoustics. My mind was on an OM or 000 but after diving into this world more of research I have discovered that 12 fret guitars could be a good shout.

I'm 5 ft 9 and have recently discovered i'm suffering with RSI in both arms. It has been mentioned to me that a shorter scale length guitar would be better and I should try 12 fret. There are more choices out there and i'm looking forward to try a few.

But i will need a cutaway.

Lowden are now doing S, F and O shape in 12 fret, Taylor do a big range too.

But having a more comfortable experience playing should in theory help with this?

Any one experience with 12 fret guitars?

MichaelWatts · February 2020

Sure thing,

I love 12 fret guitars and I've definitely found them more comfortable than 14 frets. To be honest I prefer the sound too, the bridge position in the sweet spot of the lower bout and the neck join at the octave really does make a difference. My signature Kostal guitar is a 12-fret cutaway, there's more info here.

dean111music · February 2020

Thanks so much @MichaelWatts stunning guitar.

Im really interested to hear and feel the differences. Coda have stock of lowden and taylor and I can A/B them against the 14th models.

any other brands in reasonable budget? I guess Custom order can be made with any brand but off the shelf?

dean111music · February 2020

https://youtu.be/8e_FtYuJ2yE

https://youtu.be/1dqQJpwBSSc

mgaw · February 2020

both sound lovely Dean

GTC · February 2020

Sorry to hear about the RSI. However, 12 frets to the body doesn't mean a shorter scale length. It just means that the bridge is pushed further back giving more string vibration area over the soundboard with the potential of a richer, fuller tone.

For RSI issues a shorter scale length could help but I would also recommend ensuring the guitar is properly set-up, use of lighter strings (e.g. Newtone Heritage) and good technique and posture when playing. A guitar support (e.g. Dynarette or Neck-Up) can help with the latter.

I've got a custom Avalon 12-fretter with a cutaway. Lovely guitar but I wouldn't say it is any easier to play than a 14-fretter of similar dimensions.

MichaelWatts · February 2020

dean111music said:

Thanks so much @MichaelWatts stunning guitar.

Im really interested to hear and feel the differences. Coda have stock of lowden and taylor and I can A/B them against the 14th models.

any other brands in reasonable budget? I guess Custom order can be made with any brand but off the shelf?

It depends on your budget but I know that Rory Dowling at Taran Guitars in Scotland is putting together a beautiful 12-fret for the Holy Grail show in May. I have the feeling it may be a little like this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1Db6EpgXBc

All the best

Michael

ToneControl · February 2020

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

dean111music · February 2020

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem

ToneControl · February 2020

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

dean111music · February 2020

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

i was very concerned as my arms where just locking up and was very painful so I couldn’t play.

i saw a chiropractor who eased the pain but could diagnose why. At the time I was doing a lot of body weight exercises which was heavy going on wrist and shoulder. I was also playing and holding the guitar for long periods and shoulder pain was evident.

i do get neck pain and it I get a stiff neck so it’s all triggered fromtgere down to you arms.

i have since then work with a physiotherapist, stopper body weight training and really looked at posture.

im in a much better way but I feel the guitar could make things even easier by short scale and 12 fret with cutaway,

I’m looking forward to trying the lowden S 12 fret with cutaway. Ticks all the boxes?

ToneControl · February 2020

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

dean111music said:

ToneControl said:

try using a capo on the 1st or second fret for a few weeks, to see if a shorter scale would help BEFORE making a purchase

is it your hands, wrist, shoulder, elbow or arms that are a problem?
12 fret and a small body would reduce the stretch on your arm, and the amount your playing arm has to bend out to clear the body

It’s my forearm that’s the main problem

possibly the ulnar nerve? I had trouble with mine once
is it your fretting hand?
Is the RSI from playing guitar, or work?

Have you seen a physio?

If not I would, in some towns you can self-refer to an NHS one
Depending on your budget, I'd recommend finding a highly-recommended private one
Mine does 50/50 NHS and private, but is a genius for how muscles, joints, nevers, ligaments, etc work.
Typically £40-50 for an appointment, then at least you know what's wrong in more detail

I thought I had carpal tunnel years ago based on common sense and GP diagnosis. Now I would (and do) go to the physio first, they are specialists.

It could be a combination of things, I am no expert other than an expert in deciding who can best help me.

If your plucking forearm is a problem, it could be triggered by the edge of the lower bout, is it worse in a T shirt and OK with a thick jumper? If so, one of those forearm rests would help a lot. Also you can get a little sleeve to wear to stop the edge of the guitar bothering you as much when playing in a T shirt.
The angle of the plucking shoulder can be a problem too, position and body size are key to this.
As recommended, a dynarette cushion can help, I use one for all acoustics, and vary my leg position based on the guitar body size.

Have you done a lot of weight training? Just as an example you can get shoulder damage that requires sub acromial decompression, which cause upper arm symptoms. I got it without weight training, I know others who got it from heavy lifting at the gym or manual work above head height. I had muscle wasting a way in my upper arm, and was in pain all the time, sadly the first physio thought it was just laziness. The next doctors thought it was nerve compression, but then they realised it was plain old shoulder damage (it's one of the most common operations performed btw), yet few seem to have heard of it.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

i was very concerned as my arms where just locking up and was very painful so I couldn’t play.

i saw a chiropractor who eased the pain but could diagnose why. At the time I was doing a lot of body weight exercises which was heavy going on wrist and shoulder. I was also playing and holding the guitar for long periods and shoulder pain was evident.

i do get neck pain and it I get a stiff neck so it’s all triggered fromtgere down to you arms.

i have since then work with a physiotherapist, stopper body weight training and really looked at posture.

im in a much better way but I feel the guitar could make things even easier by short scale and 12 fret with cutaway,

I’m looking forward to trying the lowden S 12 fret with cutaway. Ticks all the boxes?

definitely worth a try, but please try a dynarette cushion, it must be the cheapest thing you can try, but I think they are essential for me with small bodied guitars to get the angle right.

Have you taken a guitar to show the physio how you hold it?

dean111music · February 2020

I forgot to mention I did buy the NeckUp guitar support.

the maton depth is wider than a Dreadnought so it’s hard to get it in a perfect position.

I haven’t done that yet. But good shout!

GTC · February 2020

Re your RSI issue - it may be worth looking a the Alexander Technique. It is often thought to be some sort of new-age therapy but it is really just basic common sense. I could bore for ages on the subject and wax lyrical about what it has done for me - but, for now, here's a link to the NHS website if you want to find out more https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/alexander-technique/

When using the neck-up (or Dynarette - I've got both) it is important to pay attention to your posture. It will help if you sit on a hard seat with both feet flat on the floor.

Hope this helps - and does not put you off your pursuit for a new guitar;)

Jalapeno · February 2020

As mentioned a proper Physio (or Osteo) for diagnosis/treatment.

Avoid Chiropractors, they'll just ease the pain rather than get to the underlying problems (at best).

ToneControl · February 2020

Jalapeno said:

As mentioned a proper Physio (or Osteo) for diagnosis/treatment.

Avoid Chiropractors, they'll just ease the pain rather than get to the underlying problems (at best).

some chiropractors are good for spinal stuff, but not so much for limbs

GTC · February 2020

GTC said:

Re your RSI issue - it may be worth looking a the Alexander Technique. It is often thought to be some sort of new-age therapy but it is really just basic common sense. I could bore for ages on the subject and wax lyrical about what it has done for me - but, for now, here's a link to the NHS website if you want to find out more https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/alexander-technique/

Physios and chiropractors general just treat the particular issue. What the Alexander Technique does is to address the cause of the issue which, most often, is due ingrained bad habits in body use collected over a lifetime. It is not easy or cheap and doesn't provide an instant fix - but boy is it worth it.

Andy79 · February 2020

Seeing as this is a public forum let’s stick to guitars or science based medicine of which Chiropractic and other pseudo sciences are not part of.

Maybe before you plunge into a big spend you could try a cheap travel guitar for a while, see if there actually is a benefit to the smaller size

GTC · February 2020

Andy79 said:

Seeing as this is a public forum let’s stick to guitars or science based medicine of which Chiropractic and other pseudo sciences are not part of.

I can see where you are coming from but the main issue here appears to be overcoming RSI, particilarly with respect to guitar playing. Therefore it is right and proper to mention possibly more effective alternatives to a new guitar.

Regarding the Alexander Technique - it is certainly not a pseudo-science or new-age mumbo jumbo. It is widely used and proven by musicians to both overcome issues such as RSI and also to improve performance.

I'll leave it there - but, as I mentioned earlier, I'd never want to put someone off buying a new guitar;)

GTC · February 2020

Andy79 said:
Maybe before you plunge into a big spend you could try a cheap travel guitar for a while, see if there actually is a benefit to the smaller size

This isn't a bad suggestion. There a lot of them around for very affordable prices and a smaller scale and/or a 12-fretter with a smaller body could help. In extreme cases of arthritis and RSI I've heard of some accomplished musicians having to resort to a 4-string tenor guitar or a baritone uke.

the_butler · February 2020

Not a 12 fret, but I believe Taylor Grand Concerts are 24.75" scale & are small bodied.
They're the ones that end in '2' so 312c through to 912c

Whitecat · February 2020

the_butler said:

Not a 12 fret, but I believe Taylor Grand Concerts are 24.75" scale & are small bodied.
They're the ones that end in '2' so 312c through to 912c

Taylor does do 12-fret versions of their Grand Concert models... for some reason it's not explicit in the model numbering though, so they will be labelled as '12 fret' in addition to being called a 322 or whatever. One of the dead giveaways is the headstock - 12-fret Taylors are slotted, 14-frets aren't.

I picked up a 322ce about a year and a half ago now and it's been great - wanted something small-bodied, killed two birds with one stone so to speak by going both small-bodied *and* 12-fret. Really nice tone, these days as far as Taylor stuff goes I think I prefer it to most of the 14-fret stuff, just has a different presence to it and a little more midrange. The wood combo on it is excellent - mahogany top and Tasmanian Blackwood back & sides - the former being interesting to me as I otherwise only have had spruce top steel-string acoustics. I believe that Taylor uses "genuine" mahogany too on anything labelled 'tropical' mahogany from their factory, just that it could come from any number of countries, if that sort of thing matters to you.

If OP prefers spruce though, I suspect something like this would be a good grab - although not at Coda - https://www.peachguitars.com/taylor-namm-2018-312ce-12-fret-ltd-used.htm

GTC · February 2020

If you are going to Coda then it would be well worth looking at the Brook guitars they have in stock - in particular, the Lynn and the Creedy. They are both 12 fretters - the Lynn having the larger (00) body and a 630 mm scale and the Creedy with a shorter 623mm scale and smaller body. Both have a 45mm nut width. Every Brook I've tried has played like a dream and they hold their value well if you need to sell on.

The figured mahogany back on the Lynn at Coda is particularly nice (I saw an example made from the same batch when I picked up my custom Taw lefty at their workshops in October)

dean111music · February 2020

GTC said:

If you are going to Coda then it would be well worth looking at the Brook guitars they have in stock - in particular, the Lynn and the Creedy. They are both 12 fretters - the Lynn having the larger (00) body and a 630 mm scale and the Creedy with a shorter 623mm scale and smaller body. Both have a 45mm nut width. Every Brook I've tried has played like a dream and they hold their value well if you need to sell on.

The figured mahogany back on the Lynn at Coda is particularly nice (I saw an example made from the same batch when I picked up my custom Taw lefty at their workshops in October)

Thanks I’ll check it out. Ideally need a cutaway but sounds great here

https://youtu.be/71nqXmT6tZM

looks very comfortable

dean111music · February 2020

They also have the Atkin 00

https://www.coda-music.com/acoustic-guitars/atkin-0037s-relic.html

GTC · February 2020

dean111music said:

They also have the Atkin 00

https://www.coda-music.com/acoustic-guitars/atkin-0037s-relic.html

That video of the Brook Lynn sounded lovely! If you try it and you like it you could always order a custom model direct from Brook with a cutaway. The additional cost of a cutaway is £250. It would take around 7 months from order but you'd get to choose your own woods and dimensions. Going there is an experience in itself.

Last year I did see a 2014 Lynn with cutaway up on Reverb for a very good price. All I could do was curse that I was born left-handed! They are currently making me a custom nylon-strung based on their Cary model with a cutaway (figured ebony back/sides and spruce top).

I haven't any experience with Atkin but it looks nice. The dimensions are very similar to the Lynn.

GTC · February 2020

Regarding Andy79 's idea about trying something cheaper first size-wise. It is a good one as what might seem terrific from a relatively short trial in a store may not prove so great when you've lived it with it for a month or two.

There are plenty of good cheaper 12-fret acoustics - e.g. Sigma. Finding one with a cutaway will be more difficult. The only thing that comes close that I can think off is a Faith Mercury with a "scoop" (mini cutaway - but effective). This has a short 610mm scale and a 43mm nut width. There is a used one on Amazon at the moment for under £400.

Have you considered any nylon string option? I have recently discovered La Patrie (a Godin brand) guitars and have been hugely impressed. Take the Arena range for example - 12 fret cutaway with a radiused fingerboard and 2" nut - and feels very comfortable for a steel string fingerstyle player like me. E.g. https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/La-Patrie-Arena-CW-QIT-Natural/2HTM

If you go for the cheaper option, get a recognisable brand to easily sell on if the experiment is unsuccessful or if it works out and you want to move on to something more expensive and, perhaps, custom.

In the custom area there is also Avalon (ex-Lowden). I have a custom Avalon and it is a beaut. You can also save a lot on Avalon shop prices by going direct.

dean111music · February 2020

GTC said:

Regarding Andy79 's idea about trying something cheaper first size-wise. It is a good one as what might seem terrific from a relatively short trial in a store may not prove so great when you've lived it with it for a month or two.

There are plenty of good cheaper 12-fret acoustics - e.g. Sigma. Finding one with a cutaway will be more difficult. The only thing that comes close that I can think off is a Faith Mercury with a "scoop" (mini cutaway - but effective). This has a short 610mm scale and a 43mm nut width. There is a used one on Amazon at the moment for under £400.

Have you considered any nylon string option? I have recently discovered La Patrie (a Godin brand) guitars and have been hugely impressed. Take the Arena range for example - 12 fret cutaway with a radiused fingerboard and 2" nut - and feels very comfortable for a steel string fingerstyle player like me. E.g. https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/La-Patrie-Arena-CW-QIT-Natural/2HTM

If you go for the cheaper option, get a recognisable brand to easily sell on if the experiment is unsuccessful or if it works out and you want to move on to something more expensive and, perhaps, custom.

In the custom area there is also Avalon (ex-Lowden). I have a custom Avalon and it is a beaut. You can also save a lot on Avalon shop prices by going direct.

Thanks so much for your input.

yes I think your right I could end with an expensive guitar that I might not need or want and a quick try in a shop may not cut it.

Sigma are a good shout to try before going anything too expensive!

ill look into them more

GTC · February 2020

The distance from the nut to the body with a 12 fret 650 mm scale guitar will be roughly the same as that for a 14 fret short-scale 610mm guitar - so, if you don't mind the short scale length a cutaway might not be necessary.

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12 fret Acoustics with cutaway

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