Piezo unpleasantness - is there any excuse for it these days?

TimmyO · December 2019

Radio 6 is on. Billy Bragg is banging away on some live set thing - complete with pretty brash guitar sound.

Why is this still a thing?

Andy79 · December 2019

Great performance wasn’t it. But yeah the sound was awful

mgaw · December 2019

he's more interested in the song probably

TheMarlin · December 2019

I can’t bear that sound, sets my teeth on edge.

Funkfingers · December 2019

It is the nature of the beast. That is what they sound like. They happen to be more convenient to use on stage than magnetic soundhole pickups or trying to stay on mic.

Kaman/Ovation popularised piezo systems in the Seventies. Their guitars were already half plastic. It was no surprise when that was exactly what the piezo made them sound like.

ToneControl · December 2019

K&K pure mini please

I use IR modelling on the signal from piezos

Lewy · December 2019

There is absolutely no excuse for it unadulterated...but I think USTs remain the best option for going into something like an Aura or IR.

GTC · December 2019

I've been very pleasantly surprised by the L R Baggs Active Element piezo system on my Brook Tamar - far better and more natural than any other piezo system I've come across.

I also prefer the K&K Pure Mini under-bridge transducer system - but it can be prone to feedback, particularly with larger bodied instruments.

p90fool · December 2019

Even a cheap Zoom acoustic DI can make your bare piezo tone pretty acceptable these days, or at least to the point where your ear wouldn't be drawn to it under the voice of a singer/songwriter.

I'm always amazed at how many pros just leave it to the engineer like it's not their problem, but I suppose it's no different to those electric players who don't care what amp is supplied.

I would also say, in my experience there are still plenty of BBC radio engineers who do not have the foggiest idea how to EQ a piezo pickup to quickly get an acceptable tone.

bandmaster188 · December 2019

Our other guitarist used a pointy Ibanez through the acoustic simulator on his helix the other night and it was more convincing than any piezo I’ve heard.

Chris_J · December 2019

Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...

crunchman · December 2019

Chris_J said:

Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...

I think it's easier to do it outboard. I picked up a TC BodyRez pedal for £50 second hand. It really helps a piezo equipped guitar.

I bought that a couple of months before Boss brought out their AD-2 acoustic pedal, when there wasn't much else around unless you wanted to spend lots on the Fishman Aura. Given my previous experience with TC reliability**, I'd buy the Boss now.

** lets just say that in my experience, TC and reliablility go together in a sentence like Pat Butcher and beautiful.

Keefy · December 2019

I don't care for piezo systems, and use a (very expensive) magnetic soundhole pickup.

But didn't one of the acoustic guitar manufacturers come up with a system where the piezo element wasn't under massive compressive force all the time, and which allegedly sounded better?

EDIT: IIRC Bill Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.

Chris_J · December 2019

Keefy said:

I don't care for piezo systems, and use a (very expensive) magnetic soundhole pickup.

But didn't one of the acoustic guitar manufacturers come up with a system where the piezo element wasn't under massive compressive force all the time, and which allegedly sounded better?

EDIT: IIRC Bill Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.

Maybe the Taylor ES2 system?

I have 2 magnetic sound hole pickups. The Fishman Rare Earth Blend and the Schertler one, both with a mic which you can blend in to add some air and create a more natural sound.

I prefer both over a piezo type.

The Schertler is more natural sounding, but, the Fishman has a slightly lower noise floor and deals with feedback better.

ICBM · December 2019

Chris_J said:

Maybe a daft question but why don't the active electronics eq out the quack in all piezo pickup guitars? It seems obvious and would remove the burden on the engineer...

Because the 'quack' isn't just an EQ problem, it's a transient attack and waveform problem.

The fundamental problem with a piezo pickup is that the waveform it produces is wrong - it produces its peak voltage output when the element is under the most (or least) compression, which is at the *extremes* of the string vibration, when the string is momentarily stationary. A magnetic pickup produces its peak voltage output when the string is *moving* fastest, which is at the *middle* of the string vibration. The natural unamplified sound of an acoustic guitar is actually produced more by the speed of the string movement driving the top too, so a magnetic pickup *should* sound more natural - the problem is that by being mounted in the soundhole they have to pick up from the wrong part of the string, not at the bridge, so the mix of harmonics is all wrong and they end up sounding too much like an electric guitar.

Taylor's first version of the Expression system was very clever in that it used magnetic motion sensors in the body, so it should have produced the correct waveform - but for some inexplicable reason they ruined it by also fitting a magnetic *string* sensing pickup under the end of the fingerboard, so the result was an electric-guitar overtone at certain places on the neck. (Not to mention the noise and reliability issues they were very prone to, which is a different problem.)

The new version does indeed use piezos mounted against the side of the bridge saddle, so it sounds better than a traditional undersaddle pickup because it doesn't produce such a nasty transient attack, but it still has the inherent waveform problem of corresponding to the wrong aspect of the vibration cycle.

Even the K&K is basically a piezo, even though it's a contact one on the inside of the body so it's not under compression. It doesn't quack, but it does still sound a bit unnatural - I just compared one to a Baggs M80 soundhole pickup mounted in the same guitar, and the Baggs actually sounded more 'acoustic', more dynamic and open-sounding. The K&K sounded quite dry and flat by comparison. It's probably easier to compensate for the wrong harmonics of the magnetic pickup with the EQ in the Baggs pickup than it is to correct the wrong waveform.

A traditional UST is still best for driving a modelling system like an Aura because that's what they're designed to be given as the basic signal - and unless you deliberately mix in some of the basic pickup sound you're actually not hearing the pickup signal itself directly at all, it's really more like a Variax than a pickup and preamp system.

Funkfingers · December 2019

Keefy said:

IIRC Billy Bragg also used to have a consistently bog-awful electric guitar sound too.

In the early days, Sir William of Braggshire played an Arbiter LP DC Junior copy into a plain vanilla Roland Cube. (All kinds of horrid but it was his trademark sound.) This is what he used on the David Gilmour About Face tour ... until he was booted off.

Later, came full band arrangements and the Burns Steer.

Hijack over.

ICBM · December 2019

Funkfingers said:

In the early days, Sir William of Braggshire played an Arbiter LP DC Junior copy into a plain vanilla Roland Cube. (All kinds of horrid but it was his trademark sound.)

Worth mentioning that that amp is not what we think of as a Roland Cube now either! It's a very basic analogue solid-state amp - decent if not very inspiring clean sound, horrible onboard overdrive.

Funkfingers · December 2019

... and the most rinky dink spring reverb tray that I have ever seen. (I had a Cube 60 Chorus for a few months.) It would fit on the trackpad of the average laptop!

ICBM · December 2019

Funkfingers said:

... and the most risky dink spring reverb tray that I have ever seen. (I had a Cube 60 Chorus for a few months.) It would fit on the trackpad of the average laptop!

Same as the one in the Space Echo, I think - tinny tin-can reverb that actually sounds brilliant when combined with tape echo, and is accurately modelled in the RE-20 pedal.

(Sorry, thread hijack!)

Roland · December 2019

bandmaster188 said:

Our other guitarist used a pointy Ibanez through the acoustic simulator on his helix the other night and it was more convincing than any piezo I’ve heard.

This. Especially if you can make an IR which matches the guitar you’re playing to a suitable acoustic. I think that piezos still have a role, but for me they’ve had their day.

Jalapeno · December 2019

Boss AD pedals de-quack piezo pickups nicely, as Timmyo says no excuses these days. BB has always played with a fairly shrill tone.

RickLucas · December 2019

The best sound I have had is from a Fishman Rare Earth blend system. It has a soundhole pickup and an internal condenser mic. They can be blended or better still, sent to separate channels via a stereo lead. I use only the mic, and whilst it is a quieter signal than the pickup or a transducer, it produces the best, most natural acoustic sound.

MichaelWatts · December 2019

There is no excuse whatsoever.

david57strat · January 2020

TimmyO said:

Radio 6 is on. Billy Bragg is banging away on some live set thing - complete with pretty brash guitar sound.

Why is this still a thing?

Who knows? There are some nice pickups that don't have that awful nasally, quacky, brash tone.

For about the past ten years or so, I've been using an L.R. Baggs iBeam active pickup on my Alvarez dreadnaught, and it's the closest thing I've ever had to a miked sound, without a microphone.

It's not at all designed for super high output before feedback, though. I had to do all kinds of tricks to make it work for me, in a live situation, with other instruments. (soundhole cover, EQ notching and anti-feedback units, etc.). But, I think it sounds beautiful.

For recording (or playing live) direct, without the benefit (or the setup inconvenience/nightmares) of having to be stationary, like a statue, in front of a microphone, it really does the job.

For me, it's come to be the perfect tool, for tracking into a DAW, while retaining a believable acoustic tone.

BabyFrankReborn · January 2020

Blows my mind that despite Ed Sheeran's huge popularity (and the rewards that has brought), he still can't seem to get a decent live acoustic sound. Horrible horrible piezo scratchiness...!

telehack · January 2020

I've not battle tested this yet, but this video sold me on the Mooer Radar (skip about 2.5 mins. in):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXMz06S5OS0

I did this with mine (downloaded acoustic guitar IRs), in conjunction with a JJB acoustic pickup (like the KK Pure Mini).

shufflebeat · January 2020

No love for the Tonedexter round these parts?

I did the sound for Billy Bragg at a benefit gig a few years ago. I can't remember much of the detail but if there had been anything in his sound that stood out as being hard to deal with that's the kind of thing that tends to stick in the mind.

Nice guy, very pro.

Lewy · January 2020

shufflebeat said:

No love for the Tonedexter round these parts?

I like the idea but I haven’t liked any of the clips/demos I’ve heard...there’s this weird honky quality to the sound. I had one of those cheap iRig Acoustic clip on mics (for a few days) and that had the same thing going on.

LR Baggs have just come out with something in a similar vein too... https://www.lrbaggs.com/soundscape-acoustic-guitar-impulse-response-pedal.

shufflebeat · January 2020

That does look like an interesting project. At first glance looks like it does it's "compare the pickup to the mic" processing in real time, which would be an interesting difference between that and the TD.

If you get the chance to hear the TD in the wild I would recommend it.

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Piezo unpleasantness - is there any excuse for it these days?

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