How do Martin choose their tops?

TINMAN82 · November 2018

Having been on the prowl for a Martin 000 recently, I've been looking at lots of nice photographs online. Peach guitars in particular publish loads of well shot photos of their Martins (and other makes) at various angles.

What I've noticed is that bearclaw and grain anomalies on Martin spruce tops is virtually ubiquitous. The size, number and visual appeal of these natural phenomena appears not to correlate with the price of the instrument, found on £1k up to £10k custom shop Martins. Perhaps slightly less apparent on the 45 series tops but that's certainly not a rule. I spent a lot of time flicking through Peach guitars website and its pretty difficult to find a Martin at any price point with no evidence of bearclaw whatsoever, certainly a small minority.

This isn't meant to be (another) thread arguing the pros and cons of bearclaw. Each to their own on that, both visually and tone-wise. But it suggests to me that Martin are not choosing their tops for "cleanliness" and lack of grain anomalies by pricepoint. That being the case, does anyone know how they do choose their tops? Surely their must be some distinguishing features used to triage spruce into the lower vs higher ticket production channels? Does tone come into the equation?

deano · November 2018

My understanding is that spruce is selected for its stiffness first of all so that it can be made as thin and light as possible whilst still retaining enough strength to ensure the string tension doesn't cause problems. Adirondack spruce being better in this regard that Sitka, hence the higher prices for Adirondack.

Then builders look for tight, parallel grain structure. I don't know if that if for strength or for just the visual appeal of the thing, or both.

So I guess a very tight, straight grained Adirondack-topped instrument is going to be a higher price than one with wider spaced Sitka.

The back and sides are where the pretty woods are used. Is the price difference you have noticed due to different back-and-side woods? For example, I would expect an instrument with quilted AAAAA bubinga back and sides to be more expensive than one with a middling Indian rosewood back and sides.

TINMAN82 · November 2018

deano said:

My understanding is that spruce is selected for its stiffness first of all so that it can be made as thin and light as possible whilst still retaining enough strength to ensure the string tension doesn't cause problems. Adirondack spruce being better in this regard that Sitka, hence the higher prices for Adirondack.

Then builders look for tight, parallel grain structure. I don't know if that if for strength or for just the visual appeal of the thing, or both.

So I guess a very tight, straight grained Adirondack-topped instrument is going to be a higher price than one with wider spaced Sitka.

The back and sides are where the pretty woods are used. Is the price difference you have noticed due to different back-and-side woods? For example, I would expect an instrument with quilted AAAAA bubinga back and sides to be more expensive than one with a middling Indian rosewood back and sides.

Thanks. Yeah, no doubt back and side material is part of the price in the higher end models, along with more bling and I guess the implication of improved build, particularly from custom shop. I’m just surprised that, to my eye, there doesn’t seem to be a clear difference in appearance of spruce tops where those guitars may be several thousand £s different in price. I wonder then if the stiffness is formally tested.

AliGorie · November 2018

deano said:

My understanding is that spruce is selected for its stiffness first of all so that it can be made as thin and light as possible whilst still retaining enough strength to ensure the string tension doesn't cause problems. Adirondack spruce being better in this regard that Sitka, hence the higher prices for Adirondack.

Then builders look for tight, parallel grain structure. I don't know if that if for strength or for just the visual appeal of the thing, or both.

oofftt deano, thats some interesting thoughts u have there.

I have read first hand accounts from folks who have dealt with Martin and other big production makers over the years some even supplying the actual tonewood.

I suggest u have a look at and search here for first hand info.

https://umgf.com/the-log-cabin-f6/

The price thing re- Adi / Sitka is about availability.

And as for the Adi being superior to any of the other spruces, have a listen to what a highly experienced builder has to say -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZcrK795u6k

and equally important - selecting the bracing stock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzjtwea-jQ

if u combine the excellent information in these TWO videos and compare this expertise to the 'factory floor' and using the next from the pile of soundboard / brace from the pallet of hundreds u'll get the idea -

This is not even going as far as 'voicing' the top / bracing to get the optimum response from SELECTED sets of timber

- e.g. Dana Bourgeois.

TINMAN82 · November 2018

AliGorie said:

deano said:

My understanding is that spruce is selected for its stiffness first of all so that it can be made as thin and light as possible whilst still retaining enough strength to ensure the string tension doesn't cause problems. Adirondack spruce being better in this regard that Sitka, hence the higher prices for Adirondack.

Then builders look for tight, parallel grain structure. I don't know if that if for strength or for just the visual appeal of the thing, or both.

oofftt deano, thats some interesting thoughts u have there.
I have read first hand accounts from folks who have dealt with Martin and other big production makers over the years some even supplying the actual tonewood.
I suggest u have a look at and search here for first hand info.
https://umgf.com/the-log-cabin-f6/

The price thing re- Adi / Sitka is about availability.
And as for the Adi being superior to any of the other spruces, have a listen to what a highly experienced builder has to say -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZcrK795u6k

and equally important - selecting the bracing stock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zzjtwea-jQ

if u combine the excellent information in these TWO videos and compare this expertise to the 'factory floor' and using the next from the pile of soundboard / brace from the pallet of hundreds u'll get the idea -
This is not even going as far as 'voicing' the top / bracing to get the optimum response from SELECTED sets of timber
- e.g. Dana Bourgeois.

Looked at the video on selecting tops (the other link didn’t work on my iPhone). Very interesting, in most of the tap tests I thought I could hear what he was describing. The whole idea of luthier built acoustics with wood/instrument specific voicing, bracing etc throws several questions up.

Given the abundance of good sounding production line guitars out there, it makes me wonder slightly if it’s all a bit of cork sniffing hocus pocus. If all this complex voicing stuff was so crucial then the production line acoustic really is a total crap shoot of a gamble. Mabye it is and mabye classic production line models have hit on such a good formula that the quality of top is less important and voicing is just “close enough” on average. Admittedly I’ve never played a true luthier built, single hand crafted instrument.

AliGorie · November 2018

u got the idea TM, e.g. I got myself a dar east guitar for taking to sessions (pub), it’s in sitka / and some ‘kind’ of mahogany and the same guitar was available with an Adirondack top - the design and bracing were the same - the one with the sitka top went home with me - it was a better sounding guitar - given that they were both new. The generic design suited the sitka.
Have put clips of this guitar on the a couple of forums not sating what it was a and some folks thought it was a Collings ! - it cost me £500.
I’d go as far as to say u’r right, and that production designs often override the different components - so ya end up with ‘That Martin sound’ or what ever.

earwighoney · November 2018

TINMAN82 said:

That being the case, does anyone know how they do choose their tops? Surely their must be some distinguishing features used to triage spruce into the lower vs higher ticket production channels? Does tone come into the equation?

I can't remember for sure but I think I read a thread at the UMGF (the unofficial official Martin guitar forum) that Martin grade their Sitka soundboards purely by visual aesthetics, Martin do not grade their soundboards by tonally (which is usually done by tap tones)

A bit of time with google brought out the following threads

http://onemanz.com/guitar/readers-questions/martin-wood-grading/
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250196

Having a read through now, they have Grades upto 8 and the higher the number the greater the grade.

TINMAN82 · November 2018

earwighoney said:

TINMAN82 said:

That being the case, does anyone know how they do choose their tops? Surely their must be some distinguishing features used to triage spruce into the lower vs higher ticket production channels? Does tone come into the equation?

I can't remember for sure but I think I read a thread at the UMGF (the unofficial official Martin guitar forum) that Martin grade their Sitka soundboards purely by visual aesthetics, Martin do not grade their soundboards by tonally (which is usually done by tap tones)

A bit of time with google brought out the following threads

http://onemanz.com/guitar/readers-questions/martin-wood-grading/
https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=250196

Having a read through now, they have Grades upto 8 and the higher the number the greater the grade.

Thanks. I think onemanz article about wood grading pretty much answers my initial question.

Still, the number of anomalies and bear claw on even higher end models (just scroll through the photos on Peach) kind of suggests they may now be looser with the grading. Mabye it’s a deliberate move for the environment.

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How do Martin choose their tops?

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