Bolt on necks

wrinkleygit · September 2018

I have noticed a lot of higher end makers are now using a bolt on neck method, these include
Lakewood
Taylor
Huss & Dalton
Collings
Bourgeois
On the ones I have been lucky enough to to try I don't think this has been detrimental to their tone, the selling point seems to be they are easier to carry out a neck reset on.
So the question is, why & how often is the neck likely to require the neck angle to be adjusted on an expensive instrument ?

danishbacon · September 2018

My understanding is that the wood shifts and re-forms under tension of the strings. You can add Furch to that list

axisus · September 2018

bolt on acoustic neck??? That sounds horrible. I don't even want to see them!

proggy · September 2018

axisus said:

bolt on acoustic neck??? That sounds horrible. I don't even want to see them!

They're not horrible, you'll be surprised. Have a look at the Aria MSG-05, that's got a bolt on neck, you can't see the bolts because they're inside the guitar, it looks just like an ordinary glued on neck.

earwighoney · September 2018

axisus said:

bolt on acoustic neck??? That sounds horrible. I don't even want to see them!

For an acoustic guitar the neck join is only visible from the soundhole, from the external aspects it looks much the same.

Front and back

Image: https://www.12fret.com/wp-content/gallery/bourgeois_hide_glue_vintage_d_guitar/dynamic/Bourgeois_Hide_Glue_Vintage_D_guitar.jpg-nggid041344-ngg0dyn-845x0x100-00f0w010c010r110f110r010t010.jpg

IMO, Collings and Bourgeois are pretty much as good as it gets even at their huge price tags.

meltedbuzzbox · September 2018

earwighoney said:

axisus said:

bolt on acoustic neck??? That sounds horrible. I don't even want to see them!

For an acoustic guitar the neck join is only visible from the soundhole, from the external aspects it looks much the same.

Front and back

IMO, Collings and Bourgeois are pretty much as good as it gets even at their huge price tags.

Every Collings I have played has been really stiff sounding and not that great...
I found that very surprising given their price tags.

octatonic · September 2018

Nick Benjamin does a bolt-on neck join too.

AliGorie · September 2018

meltedbuzzbox said:

Every Collings I have played has been really stiff sounding and not that great...
I found that very surprising given their price tags.

That would be NEW instruments ? Melted - if so that is to be expected.

I play a Bourgeois JOM (1999), I chose it cause it's a v/fine instrument and equal to my 30 yr old Lowden though one has a classic European voice (think wire strung harp) and the other, the classic all American cowboy round the campfire voice - in hi fi !.

What folks DON'T understand is the mechanical coupling of the neck to block (body) relationship.

With the glued n to b joint, the glue holds the mating faces in place & together = wood to wood. With a well designed bolted design the 'bolt(s) draw the mating faces together = wood to wood.

Image: https://bourgeoisguitars.net/wp-content/themes/tf_child/images/our_story_img_09.jpg

meltedbuzzbox · September 2018

both new and used @AliGorie ;

I did a similar test with an used Martin and one of its newer authentic aged models and the difference was minimal.

AliGorie · September 2018

I only ask because I often read 'appraisals of instruments' when there newish - by that I mean they're NOT 'played in' - so yeah they will be 'tight' and 'in the box' as opposed to a mature resonant instrument.

My Bourgeois took 4 yrs to open up, a respected maker suspected due to a very stiff top - I bought it to gig with so plugged in it made no difference. It has matured into a superb guitar - acoustically.

I've played a 'second hand' Collings OM - Euro / Mahogany that was well on it's way to sonic maturity - it was a VERY fine instrument but I detected preciseness about how it formed the notes - almost hi fi overly accurate / clinical voice which would be good for some types of music but not for the average 'picker'. To well made ?.

The whole discussion hinges on your acceptance of technology - i.e. a traditional Flamenco player may not like a guitar with mechanical (metal) tuners as opposed to wooden friction 'pegs' - even that six 'lumps' of metal screwed to the headstock altered the 'spirit' of the instrument - not to mention the 'voice' - then theres types of finish and string technology - and so on.

Flamenco's might even not even accept a dovetail n to b joint, preferring the 'Spanish foot' method.

Oh truss rods - dont forget truss rods

Image: http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/plugins/EmojiExtender/emoji/fb/3.gif

axisus · September 2018

proggy said:

axisus said:

bolt on acoustic neck??? That sounds horrible. I don't even want to see them!

They're not horrible, you'll be surprised. Have a look at the Aria MSG-05, that's got a bolt on neck, you can't see the bolts because they're inside the guitar, it looks just like an ordinary glued on neck.

Ah, OK. I had visions of a strat type arrangement!

Jimbro66 · September 2018

Alister Atkin also uses bolt-on necks. I don't believe that fixing has any detrimental effect on the guitar's sound whereas other aspects of acoustic guitar construction clearly do affect the sound.

ICBM · September 2018

If you think using bolts and not glue is detrimental to the tone, and that a tight, wood-to-wood contact is important for the best tone, you should try one of Nigel Forster's guitars with the fully-floating neck... (I can't remember the name of it unfortunately.)

There are only three points of contact between the neck and body, and none of them are wood - one brass bolt at the back of the heel under tension, and two adjustable brass wheels under compression just below the fingerboard which allow the neck angle and alignment to be adjusted without even taking the strings off.

These guitars sound very much like normal acoustic guitars, and very good... and sell for about £6K I think.

There's also nothing wrong with a Strat-type joint, other than convention. If it holds the neck on a Strat or a Tele, it will hold the neck on an acoustic. Eko used them, and although they don't sound great that has more to do with the overbuilt plywood bodies than the neck joint - and they can always be set up to play really nicely, since the neck can be shimmed as well as the bridge being adjustable.

Fender's bolt-ons were mocked in the 50s too, but it's now more common than not on electric guitars... and still people argue about whether full wood-to-wood contact is inherently better than having an adjuster or a shim. (No it isn't.)

earwighoney · September 2018

ICBM said:

If you think using bolts and not glue is detrimental to the tone, and that a tight, wood-to-wood contact is important for the best tone, you should try one of Nigel Forster's guitars with the fully-floating neck...

Do you have his Howe Orme influenced model in mind? That kind of neck join is very old coming from the 1890's.

Some more information here.

http://www.nkforsterguitars.com/blog/my-favourite-guitar-howe-orme/

fendergibson · September 2018

I've got a 14 year old Taylor Big Baby with a bolt on neck ( plus a wonderful ebony board ) and superb upper fret access.

Its never moved or shifted and stays in tune till one of the kids knocks it over.

I'd have bought a J45 or D28 many moons ago but this thing wont let me. There's no room for 2 acoustics in my life.

A great bolt on neck guitar if ever there was one !

ICBM · September 2018

earwighoney said:

Do you have his Howe Orme influenced model in mind?

That's the one. I couldn't think of the name. (Aha - found the link now as well, thanks!)

Anyway, @AuldReekie has one, and I'm pretty sure he'll also tell you that it doesn't suffer from having no 'wood-to-wood contact' for 'maximum vibration transfer' between the neck and body.

In fact, I would guess that it might actually be the opposite - too much contact between two parts that happen to not resonate well together could *absorb* vibration, not sustain it.

And also, if anything bolts can produce a tighter wood-to-wood contact than glue, which always has a thin layer of glue in the middle - even if extremely thin - and lacks the constant pressure of a bolted joint when the bolts are done up fully... it's just an inert joint, whereas the metal bolt actually stretches slightly, like an extremely powerful spring pulling the surfaces together.

I know this comes as a shock to traditional luthiers

.

maltingsaudio · September 2018

My Fylde Alchemist has a bolt on neck sounds sublime and nothing’s moved in16 years

jrc2806 · September 2018

Had a Taylor 514 for a while and absoulutely loved it. Had it a few months before I realised the neck was a bolt on design but was actually pleased that adjustments would be simpler (if required) to be honest I probably could not tell the difference tonally .....

AuldReekie · September 2018

ICBM said:

earwighoney said:

Do you have his Howe Orme influenced model in mind?

That's the one. I couldn't think of the name. (Aha - found the link now as well, thanks!)

Anyway, @AuldReekie has one, and I'm pretty sure he'll also tell you that it doesn't suffer from having no 'wood-to-wood contact' for 'maximum vibration transfer' between the neck and body.

In fact, I would guess that it might actually be the opposite - too much contact between two parts that happen to not resonate well together could *absorb* vibration, not sustain it.

And also, if anything bolts can produce a tighter wood-to-wood contact than glue, which always has a thin layer of glue in the middle - even if extremely thin - and lacks the constant pressure of a bolted joint when the bolts are done up fully... it's just an inert joint, whereas the metal bolt actually stretches slightly, like an extremely powerful spring pulling the surfaces together.

I know this comes as a shock to traditional luthiers .

Indeed @ICBM, The How Orme neck certainly does not affect sustain negatively; I also know that Nigel rates How Orme neck very highly and fitted one on the guitar that he built for himself

AliGorie · September 2018

yup if it works play the darn thing.

Clashman · September 2018

Yes everyone gets bogged down in crap just play it.. Guitarists are too paranoid nobody gives a flyng F

what your'e playing if it's a good toon.

wrinkleygit · September 2018

wrinkleygit said:

So the question is, why & how often is the neck likely to require the neck angle to be adjusted on an expensive instrument ?

I don't have anything against bolt on necks, but anybody remember the original question ??

ICBM · September 2018

wrinkleygit said:

wrinkleygit said:

So the question is, why & how often is the neck likely to require the neck angle to be adjusted on an expensive instrument ?

I don't have anything against bolt on necks, but anybody remember the original question ??

Why - because the wood eventually changes shape under the string tension. How often - about once every forty years or more.

So although it is true that it makes a reset easier, it's certainly nothing that would make it a major selling point for most people.

CloudNine · September 2018

Frequency of neck reset might depend on how lightly the guitar is built, but with wood nothing is really certain I suppose. I have seen a few Santa Cruz guitars needing neck resets at about 20 years old. Never seen a Collings needing one at any age, or even looking like there was any movement or change in geometry. Not saying it doesn't happen. I would say these 2 brands are fairly opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of approach to acoustic building.

I have owned quite a few (prob 6 or 7) of each brand, and mostly preferred the SCGC's for tone. I doubt that the preference was anything to do with dovetail vs bolt, and more to do with the overall build ethos.

And the seemingly greater stability of the Collings obviously would not be anything to do with bolt vs dovetail, just thicker wood almost everywhere on the guitar. You can visibly see that. Or just weigh them and that will tell you all you need to know. If I was going to take a guitar to a desert island and spend the rest of my life away from human contact and more importantly any access to a luthier, then I might take a Collings.

My current Bourgeois beats them all for me personally, and that's a bolt joint. I would say they are generally somewhere in between SCGC and Collings in terms of lightness of build. Not really seen any over about 10 year s old, so no idea about long term stability.

Bolt neck might not be a selling point as such, but it's quite nice to know it would be an easy fix if needed. I have seen some guitars that were never the same again after a full invasive neck reset. Also, if a new neck was ever needed due to damage, warping, whatever, that would be much easier. Quite unlikely though really.

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