Do I really need a nice OM?

danishbacon · February 2018

BigLicks67 said:

@danishbacon - you may find this useful. This is my dreadnought played with a pick closely followed by my OM. It's just a rough recording with a Zoom H1 but it gives you an idea of the differences between the 2 types.

That's very useful. Thank you @BigLicks67 ;

CloudNine · February 2018

It's been said already. A great dread can be 90% the finger picker that a nice OM is. But imo, even the best OM's are only ever about 60% the strummer/flat picker that a nice Dread is.

Also, the surest way to make your Dread feel too big, is to regularly play an OM alongside it. You then get caught in an annoying limbo of loving the comfort of the OM and the tone and power of the Dread.

If you have a great Dread that does it all, and it does not cause you any discomfort, I would stick with playing that.

Moe_Zambeek · February 2018

@BigLicks67 they both sound great!

Lewy · February 2018

I have a nice spruce/mahogany dread which i do nearly all my gigging with, but also really like having a good spruce/rosewood OM too. I have completely different setups on both and get a lot of inspiration from switching back and forth between the two when I’m practicing and writing/arranging.

Trude · February 2018

I'd say you definitely need a nice 000-18. If only there was someone around here selling one, and who might be about to bump their thread in the classifieds.....

Lewy · February 2018

CloudNine said:

But imo, even the best OM's are only ever about 60% the strummer/flat picker that a nice Dread is.

There's such a world of difference between flatpicking and just strumming, and the distinction is relevant because OMs can make very fine flatpicking guitars, certainly on a par with dreads in a solo flatpicking or duo/trio context (you'd still want a dread in a full on bluegrass band). Steve Kauffman seems to exclusively play OM pattern guitars these days. Julian Lage would be another great example.

AliGorie · February 2018

I'd be interested to know where Mr Bacon is actually picking (on the string plane) on both the guitars in the clip - flatpickers almost always apply the plectrum to the strings just behind the s/hole or even nearer the bridge (except for 'vamping' chords) - thats where they get the sound they like that goes so well with bluegrass / ensemble playing.
It certainly sounds in that area - thing is OM's like to be played OVER the s/hole area - u get a rounder tone.
Just an observation.
omg - I haven't used the word 'vamping' for decades - is it still relevant / in use ?

crunchman · February 2018

Jimbro66 said:

danishbacon said:

I have a dreadnought in cedar/mahogany that I live to play. Really full sound, great harmonics, clarity and low end. In fact it's almost a bit of a loose cannon if you really dig in.

I've been toying with the idea of a completely superfluous purchase, a high end OM in rosewood/Sitka. I'm not sure who really other than the attraction of playing a smaller bodied guitar that might be a bit tighter than my dread.

Any thoughts welcome

My two-pennuth: Firstly a £1200 budget isn’t going to buy anything ‘high end’ so there will already be some compromise in construction and tone. Secondly, what is an OM going to do for you that the dread does not?

I gig with an Atkin OM28H Retrospective model and also own a sub-£1,000 OM and sub-£1,000 super jumbo. The latter gets very little use. As an OM user I would see no point in spending a lot of money on a dread unless I had a specific need for it, e.g. bluegrass flat picking. It works both ways. To my mind there is not sufficient reason to own a dread and an OM other than GAS.

If you had said you were considering a twelve-fret parlour guitar or something like an L1 I could see the sense in that as they are very diffent beasts that may well encourage exploration of other playing styles and provide a very different playing experience. But an OM? Save your money

If they are different woods then they can sound very different.

I have a spruce/rosewood dread and a spruce/mahogany OM. They have different sounds and complement each other well.

I'm not sure it would be worth owning a spruce/rosewood OM alongside the dread though.

Jimbro66 · February 2018

crunchman said:

Jimbro66 said:

danishbacon said:

I have a dreadnought in cedar/mahogany that I live to play. Really full sound, great harmonics, clarity and low end. In fact it's almost a bit of a loose cannon if you really dig in.

I've been toying with the idea of a completely superfluous purchase, a high end OM in rosewood/Sitka. I'm not sure who really other than the attraction of playing a smaller bodied guitar that might be a bit tighter than my dread.

Any thoughts welcome

My two-pennuth: Firstly a £1200 budget isn’t going to buy anything ‘high end’ so there will already be some compromise in construction and tone. Secondly, what is an OM going to do for you that the dread does not?

I gig with an Atkin OM28H Retrospective model and also own a sub-£1,000 OM and sub-£1,000 super jumbo. The latter gets very little use. As an OM user I would see no point in spending a lot of money on a dread unless I had a specific need for it, e.g. bluegrass flat picking. It works both ways. To my mind there is not sufficient reason to own a dread and an OM other than GAS.

If you had said you were considering a twelve-fret parlour guitar or something like an L1 I could see the sense in that as they are very diffent beasts that may well encourage exploration of other playing styles and provide a very different playing experience. But an OM? Save your money

If they are different woods then they can sound very different.
I have a spruce/rosewood dread and a spruce/mahogany OM. They have different sounds and complement each other well.
I'm not sure it would be worth owning a spruce/rosewood OM alongside the dread though.

I go along with that. When I bought my rosewood Atkin OM at Alistair's workshop I also tried a mahogany model. They sounded quite different and I kept going from one to the other unsure which I preferred. Both played beautifully. I decided on the rosewood. Maybe a mahogany OM might justify the OP's purchase but I'm personally still not convinced. However, he placed a WTB thread very soon after this one so seems to be seeking moral support for a decision already taken

danishbacon · February 2018

Jimbro66 said:

I go along with that. When I bought my rosewood Atkin OM at Alistair's workshop I also tried a mahogany model. They sounded quite different and I kept going from one to the other unsure which I preferred. Both played beautifully. I decided on the rosewood. Maybe a mahogany OM might justify the OP's purchase but I'm personally still not convinced. However, he placed a WTB thread very soon after this one so seems to be seeking moral support for a decision already taken

Ha! I've made the decision that I will be making a decision when it feels right to make a decision. I'm actually quite torn about it because I've come to the realization that I don't *need* another guitar, but I certainly *want* another guitar. It's just a matter of finding the right one, and the choices around seem to be quite good at the price range I'm looking at.

I'm also certain now that I do not want a very small Parlour or 12 fret type instrument, but the appeal of a different sounding instrument is still there. Surely a spruce/rosewood OM will be a different animal than a cedar/hog dread.

I've put the dread in DADGAD and now I'm thinking of justifying it by having one guitar in each tuning

sounds legit no?

One of playing style, shit recording and track, on the Boss RC loopstation with built in drummer in box.

crunchman · February 2018

danishbacon said:

Jimbro66 said:

I go along with that. When I bought my rosewood Atkin OM at Alistair's workshop I also tried a mahogany model. They sounded quite different and I kept going from one to the other unsure which I preferred. Both played beautifully. I decided on the rosewood. Maybe a mahogany OM might justify the OP's purchase but I'm personally still not convinced. However, he placed a WTB thread very soon after this one so seems to be seeking moral support for a decision already taken

Ha! I've made the decision that I will be making a decision when it feels right to make a decision. I'm actually quite torn about it because I've come to the realization that I don't *need* another guitar, but I certainly *want* another guitar. It's just a matter of finding the right one, and the choices around seem to be quite good at the price range I'm looking at.

I'm also certain now that I do not want a very small Parlour or 12 fret type instrument, but the appeal of a different sounding instrument is still there. Surely a spruce/rosewood OM will be a different animal than a cedar/hog dread.

I've put the dread in DADGAD and now I'm thinking of justifying it by having one guitar in each tuning sounds legit no?

One of playing style, shit recording and track, on the Boss RC loopstation with built in drummer in box.

Isn't that the default position for most on this forum?

Jimbro66 · February 2018

danishbacon said:

Jimbro66 said:

I go along with that. When I bought my rosewood Atkin OM at Alistair's workshop I also tried a mahogany model. They sounded quite different and I kept going from one to the other unsure which I preferred. Both played beautifully. I decided on the rosewood. Maybe a mahogany OM might justify the OP's purchase but I'm personally still not convinced. However, he placed a WTB thread very soon after this one so seems to be seeking moral support for a decision already taken

Ha! I've made the decision that I will be making a decision when it feels right to make a decision. I'm actually quite torn about it because I've come to the realization that I don't *need* another guitar, but I certainly *want* another guitar. It's just a matter of finding the right one, and the choices around seem to be quite good at the price range I'm looking at.

I'm also certain now that I do not want a very small Parlour or 12 fret type instrument, but the appeal of a different sounding instrument is still there. Surely a spruce/rosewood OM will be a different animal than a cedar/hog dread.

I've put the dread in DADGAD and now I'm thinking of justifying it by having one guitar in each tuning sounds legit no?

One of playing style, shit recording and track, on the Boss RC loopstation with built in drummer in box.

That's a nice warm sound from your dread. Cedar is a little unusual anyway for a dread so either a rosewood or mahogany OM with spruce is going to sound different. GAS is a terrible affliction which defies any logic

The only cure is to become penniless.

bermudianbrit · February 2018

to complicate things. I use a Martin GPCPA...some of the dred sound and less of the huge body size.

AliGorie · February 2018

oops got the player wrong -
BigLicks67
I'd be interested to know where your actually picking (on the string plane) on both the guitars in the clip - flatpickers almost always apply the plectrum to the strings just behind the s/hole or even nearer the bridge (except for 'vamping' chords) - thats where they get the sound they like that goes so well with bluegrass / ensemble playing.
It certainly sounds in that area - thing is OM's like to be played OVER the s/hole area - u get a rounder tone.
Just an observation.
omg - I haven't used the word 'vamping' for decades - is it still relevant / in use ?

BigLicks67 · February 2018

Moe_Zambeek said:

@BigLicks67 they both sound great!

Merci.

BigLicks67 · February 2018

AliGorie said:

oops got the player wrong -
BigLicks67
I'd be interested to know where your actually picking (on the string plane) on both the guitars in the clip - flatpickers almost always apply the plectrum to the strings just behind the s/hole or even nearer the bridge (except for 'vamping' chords) - thats where they get the sound they like that goes so well with bluegrass / ensemble playing.
It certainly sounds in that area - thing is OM's like to be played OVER the s/hole area - u get a rounder tone.
Just an observation.
omg - I haven't used the word 'vamping' for decades - is it still relevant / in use ?

I've slept since then : > but it was probably a little further forward than that, ie over the back edge of the sound hole and slightly more forward on the OM than the Dread. Hope that clears it up for you.

AliGorie · February 2018

with all this talk bout 000's and OM's heres a couple of clips (from the web) of 'well made' guitars i.e. bracing and bridge in the right place - and the type of think this model excels at -

https://soundcloud.com/user-677296198/sr-1

https://soundcloud.com/user-677296198/ms-1

danishbacon · February 2018

AliGorie said:

with all this talk bout 000's and OM's heres a couple of clips (from the web) of 'well made' guitars i.e. bracing and bridge in the right place - and the type of think this model excels at -

I quite preferred the SR, much fuller lower end. are they both 000s or OMs?

Thanks for posting @AliGorie ;

BigLicks67 · February 2018

AG - What's the tune to SR1 sounds familiar, but can't place it.

AliGorie · February 2018

The Sr - s a modern ‘interpretation’ of an 000 12 fret by John Slobod of Circa Guitars. It is spruce and maple b/sides ! which I have every reason to believe is a recreation of the ’30’s bracing / bridge / soundboard positioning and dimensions with a bit of JS’s flair thrown in. But I’ve never heard a MAPLE guitar sound so good !.
Ms- is an original 1931 Martin 000 (12 fret), spruce and Mahogany b/sides, the mother of 000’s and OM’s. so all the bracing positioning and dimensions are - as originally evolved.
the recording of the SR is good and I think the recording of the MS is done just with a video camera Mic - so it’s a little ‘thin’, still an impressively ‘modern’ sounding guitar.
One last thing - you hear a lot about 12 fretters having the bridge ‘In the right place’ - in the middle of the lower bout which gave a ‘better’ sound - this is a misconception, it’s because the old guitars were built to the old bridge / bracing pattern position that gave them ‘THAT sound - it was obvious the bridge was lower down but when the myth was being created they didn’t know about more subtle differences inside these guitars - so they just attributed it to the obvious.

bl67 heres a good trad/ modern version -

Down by the Sally Gardens by Mick O'Brien

Now ya know, have another listen to see why the original 000 and later OM models where deemed the fingerpickers dream guitar, and not for strummers.
If I was in the market for a solo fingerkicking guitar - 't would be a deep body'd 000 12 fr with cutaway.

CHRISB50 · February 2018

AliGorie said:

But I’ve never heard a MAPLE guitar sound so good !.

Check this one out.

AliGorie · February 2018

ouch that were sore = metal to metal clanking on an 'on steroids' double X braced - some mistakenly call it 'latticed' in a random sequence - like a simple 'arpeggiator ' would generate. Where's the music ? - score that out for a piano 'n you wouldn't listen too it - chewing gum music - I know, I know - oh but LOOK at what he's doing technically -
But I take yer point - there is potential in humble ol' maple.

stuartryanmusic · February 2018

Hi guys, hope I can be of assistance, that's my Circa (and me!) on the above clips. I played many high end OMs for years but they always felt like something of an 'in between' guitar - great for fingerstyle, okay for strumming and flatpicking. My preference these days is for a dreadnought when you need the low end weight and a 000 for when you need the tightness and clarity that model of guitar brings. My two main acoustic guitars at present are the Circa 000 and and 1959 Martin 00018 - I'm currently on the hunt for the right dread but wouldn't go for another OM. Of course it's all based in preference but if I were limited to just two guitars that's what I'd choose. Great discussion and as everyone else has said the wood choices can make a huge difference - maple can be a bright, zingy nightmare but John Slobod knows where to get the good stuff (German, the same as used for violins on my particular guitar). All the best! Stuart

AliGorie · February 2018

a Dread is it Stu, NOT modified I hope

.
A very fine sounding Dread I heard was by Nigel Forster.

CHRISB50 · February 2018

AliGorie said:

ouch that were sore = metal to metal clanking on an 'on steroids' double X braced - some mistakenly call it 'latticed' in a random sequence - like a simple 'arpeggiator ' would generate. Where's the music ? - score that out for a piano 'n you wouldn't listen too it - chewing gum music - I know, I know - oh but LOOK at what he's doing technically -
But I take yer point - there is potential in humble ol' maple.

LOL. Ok.

Moe_Zambeek · February 2018

CHRISB50 said:

AliGorie said:

But I’ve never heard a MAPLE guitar sound so good !.

Check this one out.

I’m not a fan of the percussive approach (though I wish I had a tenth of his talent!) but that guitar does sound good in the more traditional sections of the piece, albeit there is a lot of treble spank in it.

Horses for courses innit, I don’t suppose a D35 would be ideal for that technical approach.

of the other two clips, I liked the woodiness of the M version. And again, i wish I could play like that!

AliGorie · February 2018

Moe - not a D35 but a D28 on which Micheal Hedges superbly expressed his musicality applying, ‘precaution’ playing among a wide and balanced technical array - to serve his music, NOT the ‘music’ serving and being limited by the technique, the term 'finger gymnastics' comes to mind.
Hedges reminded me of this quote - and ‘Got It’,
Master Piper George Moss “One must be prepared to do what the music requires of you“.

back to OP, what about these 12 fret Lowdens (with cutaway)?.

danishbacon · February 2018

AliGorie said:

Moe - not a D35 but a D28 on which Micheal Hedges superbly expressed his musicality applying, ‘precaution’ playing among a wide and balanced technical array - to serve his music, NOT the ‘music’ serving and being limited by the technique, the term 'finger gymnastics' comes to mind.
Hedges reminded me of this quote - and ‘Got It’,
Master Piper George Moss “One must be prepared to do what the music requires of you“.

back to OP, what about these 12 fret Lowdens (with cutaway)?.

12 fret Lowdens gorgeous @AliGorie but much more than I can afford ATM.

Thank you everyone who chimed in. Turns out I DO need a nice OM, and to satisfy that need there's something special incoming.....

AliGorie · February 2018

looks tasty DB

RJT · February 2018

Hi DanishBacon.
First of all I have to declare a vested interest - I want to sell some high end Rosewood/Stka OMs!!
(Collings OM2H, Martin 000-28EC, as well as a Maple Taylor 614ce 2002 Limited Edition).
However, to answer your questions, well I suppose nobody really needs a nice OM, but they are rather yummy.
Personally I find Dreadnoughts visually unattractive (although I realise this shouldn't matter). However I have tried a few out over the years, and I can't say that I've found them to be generally less defined than an OM. They are just different, but then all guitars are.
They do tend to be louder, with more bass, but I don't find Rosewood OMs lacking bass in any way. The Dreadnought may be better in a purely acoustic club, (or busking).
I do find the OM body size much more comfortable to play (and cuter). Also I've found that Dreadnoughts seem to have a 1 11/16 inch (42.9 mm) nut width, whereas all my OMs are 1 3/4 inch (44.5 mm), which I much prefer.
You really need to try some OMs out (do you have a decent acoustic guitar shop anywhere near?) and see what floats your boat.
In addition to my guitars mentioned above, I have a Fylde Orsino, and two Santa Cruz OM "Pre-war" OMs. They all sound quite different - even the two SCs!! If I went for a different body size now, it would be smaller.
(I seem to have written more that I intended, but I can write more if you'd like ...),
Cheers
Bob

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Do I really need a nice OM?

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