Is the higher end market for acoutics dead?

VimFuego · November 2017

Caveat, I am drawing all my evidence of the state of the market for higher end acoustics solely and purely on tFB and I am aware that there may be a whole other world out there beyond the confines of our little fishbowl.

So, it appears to me that the market for higher end boxes seems a little dead. Looking at the classifieds here, I've seen some fantastic guitars almost being given away and still not getting snapped up. Some guy was selling a stunning Atkin and got no takers, another forumite is trying to shift a really nice UK handmade box, no takers and I seem to recall someone trying to sell a larry at a pretty fair price and no takers.
This got me thinking, while the market for mod range electrics seems buoyant, there doesn't seem to be the same activity in higher end acoustics, or it this just my perception?

Whitecat · November 2017

At the same time, suddenly everyone's a Lowden dealer with tonnes of examples in stock... a couple years ago I don't even know where I would have bought one.

VimFuego · November 2017

yeah, I'm certainly seeing more shops that are either specialising in high end acoustics or carry an impressive stock of them.

crunchman · November 2017

It's not dead but it's always been a niche thing. 20 or 25 years ago the majority of people I saw playing live would have been using a Takamine or a Yamaha. You saw a handful of Lowdens and other high end stuff but they were a real minority.

Today it might be brands like Faith, or the Sheeran type budget Martins but guitars at slightly lower prices are always the mainstream. The high end stuff has always been niche.

The fact that Sheeran plays Wembley with £600 guitar shows how good some of that stuff is these days.

Moe_Zambeek · November 2017

I don't think this place is a popular hangout for many primarily acoustic players, and that's who you need if you want to sell expensive acoustics.

My impression is that acoustics of all price ranges are more popular than ever out there in retail land.

TimmyO · November 2017

Oh I'd have bought (and taken straight to bed!) that Atkin rosewood dread - just don't have spending money!

When I started my "I want a good one" quest some while back I got offers of loads of wonderful high end stuff - the majority of which is still for sale (either overtly or gets offered as swap suggestions)

I think as @Moe_Zambeek ; says we just don't have a critical mass of acoustic-first types on t'forum currently to form a decent sized market.

Whitecat · November 2017

One thing that's interesting is that there are WAY more female members/participants in the various acoustic guitar groups on Facebook I belong to. They are like 1 in 100 in groups that are primarily electric guitar but there are probably at least ten times as many in primarily acoustic groups.

Anyway, that just equates to more possible buyers I guess...

ICBM · November 2017

It does seem to me that although the high-end acoustic market is strong from new, that doesn't translate as much into demand and high prices second hand - not for anything other than the 'big name' brands, anyway. It's a little bit the same even for high-end electrics, although not as much.

If you think it's bad for acoustics, try classicals...

VimFuego · November 2017

"If you think it's bad for acoustics, try classicals..." don't, I have a really nice spanish made classical that I don't really play, but of I tried to sell it I'd get tuppence ha'penny for it.

Lewy · November 2017

It seems to me that it’s been a race to the bottom price wise since Ebay enabled everyone to see what the last example of something sold for. Regardless of what the seller’s motivations and circumstances may have been leading them to take a low price, that becomes set as all that thing is worth. So it’s a permanent buyers market from this point on.

mgaw · November 2017

I think there is also an element of "special occasion" purchasing with very high end guitars

jellyroll · November 2017

I'm doing my personal best to keep the market buoyant

Kilgore · November 2017

This is 'hot topic' on one of the US acoustic forums. Whether or not the UK market is similar is open to debate but here goes:

Over supply: most of the top end makers have increased production over the last 20 years. You only have to look at Martin to see the number of 'Vintage' this and 'Authentic' that they have been churning out.
Most of these have been aimed at an affluent demographic, that is getting on in years. To be blunt, lots of them are either dying or becoming too infirmed to play. This means there are a lot of second hand instruments coming on the market.
Competition: There are an increasing number of 'second' tier makers with growing reputations who are producing quality instruments, people like Eastman, Furch etc. Maybe consumers are choosing new models from these makers rather than used from tradutional high end makers.

That's my take on it anyway.

dtr · November 2017

Maybe it's just me (and I'm primarily an acoustic player) but acoustics are way more personal. I have my one acoustic and it's the only one I want to play - it feels perfect and sounds beautiful. With electrics, while I don't play them nearly as much some of the fun is the puzzle of putting things together - pickups, pedals, amps, etc, and that leads to wanting to try out different pieces. I'm always wanting to try something new with my electric setup, but the more I play my acoustic, the deeper I bond with it.

VimFuego · November 2017

Kilgore said:

This is 'hot topic' on one of the US acoustic forums. Whether or not the UK market is similar is open to debate but here goes:

Over supply: most of the top end makers have increased production over the last 20 years. You only have to look at Martin to see the number of 'Vintage' this and 'Authentic' that they have been churning out.
Most of these have been aimed at an affluent demographic, that is getting on in years. To be blunt, lots of them are either dying or becoming too infirmed to play. This means there are a lot of second hand instruments coming on the market.
Competition: There are an increasing number of 'second' tier makers with growing reputations who are producing quality instruments, people like Eastman, Furch etc. Maybe consumers are choosing new models from these makers rather than used from tradutional high end makers.

That's my take on it anyway.

this strikes me as very insightful, and ties in with my own observations.

jellyroll · November 2017

This is 'hot topic' on one of the US acoustic forums. Whether or not the UK market is similar is open to debate but here goes:

Over supply: most of the top end makers have increased production over the last 20 years. You only have to look at Martin to see the number of 'Vintage' this and 'Authentic' that they have been churning out.
Most of these have been aimed at an affluent demographic, that is getting on in years. To be blunt, lots of them are either dying or becoming too infirmed to play. This means there are a lot of second hand instruments coming on the market.
Competition: There are an increasing number of 'second' tier makers with growing reputations who are producing quality instruments, people like Eastman, Furch etc. Maybe consumers are choosing new models from these makers rather than used from tradutional high end makers.

That's my take on it anyway.

I'd also add PRICING....which (in the UK) has leapt recently...

Somebody buys a £4/5/6k guitar new - it's a person who is not so price sensitive but who wants THAT guitar.

Come time to sell, they expect to get back 60 - 75% of the new price. That means they expect to get £2 - 4k. But that next tier of buyers ARE perhaps significantly more price sensitive (perhaps working pros as opposed to wealthy hobbyists who buy new). They've seen that used Collings (or whatever) go from £1.5k to over £2k and that's a big jump for them, so they hold off or buy Eastman/Furch instead as @Kilgore says.

crunchman · November 2017

jellyroll said:

Come time to sell, they expect to get back 60 - 75% of the new price. That means they expect to get £2 - 4k. But that next tier of buyers ARE perhaps significantly more price sensitive (perhaps working pros as opposed to wealthy hobbyists who buy new). They've seen that used Collings (or whatever) go from £1.5k to over £2k and that's a big jump for them, so they hold off or buy Eastman/Furch instead as @Kilgore says.

It's not only price. Based on my experience of how they sound, I'd rather have a Furch than a Collings anyway.

I've not played Eastman, but there are some very skilled craftsmen in Eastern Europe, and guitars like Furch are very good. With Furch, the price difference isn't so much about the quality as about the fact that wages are lower in Eastern Europe. The fact that there is no import duty helps a bit as well.

Jimbro66 · November 2017

This thread is interesting because it ties in with other threads of recent months.

Partscasters: The summarised advice to those considering partscasters is that it gets you exactly the guitar you want but don’t expect to get too much for it if you sell it. This seems to apply similarly to higher end acoustics from what I have seen and experienced.

It’s been reported on the FB that there is a dwindling interest in guitars among younger folk and, as mentioned above by @Kilgore, the older well-heeled players are dying off or having to give up playing. Over time this may adversely affect used guitar values, particularly higher end ones. An American vintage guitar dealer who I know says there is a worry that the whole inflated vintage guitar bubble could burst within the next decade. I wonder what our dealers on here think about that?

As for selling higher-end acoustics on the FB, I’d say it’s hardly worth trying. Some really nice guitars have been offered here at bargain prices without selling. It’s a great place to buy/sell FX and sub-£1,000 guitars/amps but even then there’s a lot of trading without money changing hands.

My Santa Cruz OM was sold on commission by a dealer specialising in that market and I would probably take the same route if I ever wanted to sell my Atkin. They target the right buyer and it can actually result in a better return than selling privately (with all the hassle that can involve).

jackorion · November 2017

Well I just bought a Lowden so who knows???

I think the acoustic market is different - there's a bit less chopping and changing and people tend to get to a certain level and then slowly change things round rather than deciding on a whim they want a Strat and that Epiphone Les Paul can go...

Plus mid-priced electrics are much better than mid priced acoustics, so people might have a mexi strat, an epi les paul, an ibanez jazz box and another strat as a backup, whereas people don't tend to have a faith, a tanglewood, a yamaha and a takamine - they move up through the price range until most of us settle on one or two (or maybe three!) nice pieces but ti takes a while...

Funkfingers · November 2017

VimFuego said:

I'm certainly seeing more shops that are either specialising in high end acoustics or carry an impressive stock of them

... or can not shift them as quickly as they would like.

antifash · November 2017

I bought and sold some expensive acoustics here, so not in my experience.

crunchman · November 2017

jackorion said:

Well I just bought a Lowden so who knows???

I think the acoustic market is different - there's a bit less chopping and changing and people tend to get to a certain level and then slowly change things round rather than deciding on a whim they want a Strat and that Epiphone Les Paul can go...

Plus mid-priced electrics are much better than mid priced acoustics, so people might have a mexi strat, an epi les paul, an ibanez jazz box and another strat as a backup, whereas people don't tend to have a faith, a tanglewood, a yamaha and a takamine - they move up through the price range until most of us settle on one or two (or maybe three!) nice pieces but ti takes a while...

There is truth to this. I've been through quite a few. I now have a really good spruce/rosewood Martin Dreadnought, a spruce/ mahogany Furch OM, and a Mexican made Martin OOO X1AE that I don't mind putting in a gig bag and carrying on my bike.

I'm pretty happy with that. Given the second hand prices on the British builders, part of me does wonder about finding a second hand Atkin and selling the Martin, and getting a little bit of extra cash but I'm happy with what I have.

jellyroll · November 2017

It’s intuitively obvious where the value is in a higher end acoustic - rarer woods, luthier skills, etc. With electrics, you get “vintage authenticity” whatever that is.

But the question posed by the OP is whether the higher end acoustic market is slowing down. Given yesterday’s depressing productivity outlook for the UK, you might think if hasn’t already slowed down, it soon will. Having said that, those who are willing to buy high end acoustics perhaps live in a rarified wealth bubble which is less sensitive to the vagaries of the national economy, I don’t know.

preston61 · November 2017

I don't know too much about the state of the higher end acoustic market, however I do like that at the time I had the money to buy a new acoustic I was able to afford a 2nd hand Avalon for the same price that I sold my Gibson J45.

baj25 · November 2017

Interesting debate. I am in the mid 50’s with a few bob to spare demographic, as are other people I know. They seem to have been getting some expensive guitars in recent years- I think this market will be pretty resilient, the ‘I am not going to live forever, might as well have a nice axe…’ mentality. There certainly feels like more choice than ever in the mid-high end market, and IIRC Taylor are knocking out 700 guitars a day, (and they say they can’t make enough) that’s a lot of product entering the market. I’ve been looking for one lately and I haven’t seen anything at giveaway prices though.

Trude · November 2017

I'm the guy with the Atkin rosewood dread mentioned above. As of now it's on eBay with 79 watchers. I've had a lot of messages, and bidding has been steady and quite healthy so far. Fingers crossed it ends on a good price!

The thread on here got plenty of views, and I had a few enquiries, but nobody followed through.

I just think the auction format is better for getting people mentally invested in what you're selling, as they get on board when the price looks low, and the temptation is to not let it get away. It's scary to sell like this, but it usually works out.

VimFuego · November 2017

glws, gotta say don't think I'd have the guts to sell via auction for a big ticket item like that, but hope it works out for you.

Trude · November 2017

Thanks! If it goes tits-up, I'll be back to cry into my virtual pint...

AustrianJohn · November 2017

I tried - and failed - to sell my Lowden on here a while back. I've recently formed an acoustic duo and rediscovered what a great guitar it is, so I'm relieved that it didn't sell. If anyone here is in Austria we're called Platform 2 and you can see us at the Alte Gerberai in St Johann in Tirol on Friday and the Wieshofer Mühle Christmas market on Saturday.

danishbacon · November 2017

Trude said:

I'm the guy with the Atkin rosewood dread mentioned above. As of now it's on eBay with 79 watchers. I've had a lot of messages, and bidding has been steady and quite healthy so far. Fingers crossed it ends on a good price!

The thread on here got plenty of views, and I had a few enquiries, but nobody followed through.

I just think the auction format is better for getting people mentally invested in what you're selling, as they get on board when the price looks low, and the temptation is to not let it get away. It's scary to sell like this, but it usually works out.

I've been sorely disappointed with this approach in the past, but also pleasantly surprised. Good luck!

Trude · November 2017

Thanks @danishbacon ;- it did sell, for a fair bit less than I was hoping for. Thing is, with close to 100 watchers, you can't really complain as the selling price is *literally* the market rate. I'd have probably ended up at a similar price if I'd kept it on here and gradually dropped it, and it would've taken weeks to get there.

Seems brutal, but I'm philosophical about it - it was part of the learning process that led me to a 2013 Martin D18 that fits me like a glove.

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Is the higher end market for acoutics dead?

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