model 33 B&H Zenith archtop (photos added)

mr-mac · March 2017

Just wondered really as seen one in nice cond quite cheap.

They were made by framus and this one has a single cutaway and the fret marker inlays are almost whole area between fret and at 1,3,5,7,9,12... So have a feeling its a higher up model in range. Action seems very low for an old archtop and metal plate makes it look like has a truss tod.

long term plan something different for slide and acoustic use so will add scratchplate with pickup or neck pickup and probably fit some sort of piezo pickup as well. Make some removable covers for f-holes for certain gigs/uses.

Like I say just wondered what they were like and if they were decent machines or if I should be looking for something else at lower price points for old archtops?

Thanks

mr-mac · March 2017

We'll I have it... Condition reasonable... Frets excellent thin with no wear, action every bit as low as modern acoustic with no buzz at all right up board, sounds superb, tbh nice resonant projecting sound (very nice acoustic sound). Plays superbly indeed.

even has a zero fret right beside nut (which photos confirm is original).

So proud owner of zenith super deluxe cutaway, signature on label still very clear.

Next job consider bucker and pizo plus scratch guard with controls

and may fit an adjustable bridge to fine tune intonation before having original altered or new top bit made to mirror adjustments though it's not far away as is.

mr-mac · March 2017

Enjoying it so far... Looking at advert I found quite a difference in prices... The model 17 (Paul McCartney one) originally sold for £14/14'... The model up 19 was £19/19'

The Super cutaway De Luxe was £27/6' so a fair amount and twice the cost of model 17. Inflation based on rpi about £600 today although comparing to wage/purchase power of time it would have been eqiv to an £1800-£2100 purchase now.

will try and upload photos later

. Apparently the cutaway features a larger body and f-holes and has a rather nice inlay and fret markers which remind me of a very high quality fountain pen of same era

. Also notice unlike pics of cheaper ones the wood or veneer is two piece front and back but on mine (the 33) only back has grain split down middle front is a single piece across whole top (not sure if that means higher quality laminate or if actually means top on 33 is actually not laminate).

ICBM · March 2017

I'd be highly surprised if any of them aren't all-laminate. As far as I know all that era of German guitars are laminate, right up to the top-of-the-range Hofners - the only exception being the Golden Hofner.

They can sound very good with a Fishman Powerbridge-type piezo pickup, through a good preamp - and an electric guitar amp for proper vintage tone

.

mr-mac · March 2017

Just. wondered as most laminate guitars with an archtop usually have veneer split in two down the middle

mr-mac · March 2017

mr-mac · March 2017

mr-mac · March 2017

ICBM · March 2017

mr-mac said:

Just. wondered as most laminate guitars with an archtop usually have veneer split in two down the middle

Not always, generally only the fancier ones. The back more often is because they're duplicating a bookmatched maple back.

It looks nice in the pic!

mr-mac · March 2017

mr-mac · March 2017

Not the best pic but you can see the zero fret which was standard looking at other pics of them. Also the proper inlay (doesn't show up well here) but it's same pearl celluloid as the fret markers (Similar to quality fountain pen of era)

ICBM · March 2017

Very pretty decal and inlay.

Is the nut a replacement? It may just be the pic but it looks like a typical cheap modern moulded one, and the E strings are a bit close to the sides of the fingerboard (low E especially).

If it has been changed it may have been a classic German 3-ply laminate one originally, that would look really nice.

mr-mac · March 2017

Would heel of neck or body just beside it be best for forward strap button? or somewhere else? already a wooden rear one pegged into a hole so gonna cut peg flush and glue in then pop metal step button where it was I guess... looks like a bit of wear on cog wheels in pegs but all work perfectly, no jumps or slipping.

mr-mac · March 2017

ICBM said:

Very pretty decal and inlay.

Is the nut a replacement? It may just be the pic but it looks like a typical cheap modern moulded one, and the E strings are a bit close to the sides of the fingerboard (low E especially).

If it has been changed it may have been a classic German 3-ply laminate one originally, that would look really nice.

Nah looks seriously old, shape has been worn away to top of string 6 but still stops it coming out and as it's a zero fret I ain't too fussed... Just exposure in photo I reckon

mr-mac · March 2017

Inlay is lovely proper 50's quality celluloid really dramatic 3d depth to the pearloid pattern in it matching fret markers

mr-mac · March 2017

What does three ply look like?

ICBM · March 2017

http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/instruments/20140718/Hofner-0714-d-nut-th.jpg

Or sometimes black/white/black.

mr-mac · March 2017

Nah defo white in this advert http://garydeaconguitar.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/vintage-1957-zenith-guitars-advertisment.html?m=1. And like is say condition, wear, degredation of outer surface it looks every bit of it's 60yr old. As does the white material on bridge which is starting to degrade badly where slots were particularly and either edge. Just trying to decide best route for bridge... Could probs add pins with correct spacing to lower half to accept abr style.

mr-mac · March 2017

Must get a photo of label inside as seems quite rare the signature is still visible as most say its faded

ICBM · March 2017

mr-mac said:

Could probs add pins with correct spacing to lower half to accept abr style.

Don't, it will sound horrible.

The solid ebony Powerbridge is the best solution if you need to replace the bridge anyway, and it gives you a pickup too

.

mr-mac · March 2017

Yes but don't see any intonation adjustment at all... Was actually starting to wonder if the bass piezo they have in the height adjust wheels or something designed to sit under where bridge touches body may be better as can have a upper bridge sorted for perfect intonation but also get quality pickup....

mr-mac · March 2017

Bridge is fine it's just the white plastic/resin/bone bit that needs replaced but may need to change design depending on intonation which may benefit from a tweak... That being case I'd probs do a new upper section of bridge above the height wheels. Probs keep original lower section as width and curve etc were made for guitar

ICBM · March 2017

mr-mac said:

Yes but don't see any intonation adjustment at all...

The Powerbridge has height wheels just like a standard adjustable archtop bridge. It does come without the saddle top cut, yes - that way you can make it to suit your preferred string gauge/type. Which makes it somewhat more challenging to fit than a simple bridge replacement… but it does sound very good, both amplified and acoustically.

mr-mac · March 2017

If I go for original or new top section made to sit on old base what would best piezo option then be?

ICBM · March 2017

If you want to use the original you can fit a standard undersaddle piezo - just remember to make sure the bridge is in the right place when you drill the cable hole down through the top!

mr-mac · March 2017

Not a problem but would correct intonation not usually need a split saddle for top two strings? Or is it not a huge issue?

ICBM · March 2017

mr-mac said:

Not a problem but would correct intonation not usually need a split saddle for top two strings? Or is it not a huge issue?

Not a huge issue, especially if you use flatwounds - as you should be with this type of guitar

- the intonation 'step' is smaller with flats. You can always cut the top of the saddle into an offset if you want, even on much a narrow saddle. Angling the whole bridge will take care of the rest.

http://www.strangeguitarworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/IMG_1220.jpg

I also forgot to say, make the cable hole in the bridge base and in the top on the treble side, not the bass - and a bit oversized to allow for a tiny bit of movement - since plain strings all intonate about the same, it's the wound ones that can vary.

(And you can use roundwounds if you like

.)

mr-mac · March 2017

I ain't a jazz player.. It will likely be round wound and nickel as plan on fitting a rhythm chief pickup (or neck mounted type pickup) at some point so for electric side I am looking for elmore James type tone (so round wound nickel probs the right way to go). The piezo will be for amplified acoustic sound for versatility of instrument. unamplified is just for practise so as ling as useable acoustically that's fine.

Read up on it and seems to be accepted that if your going jazz and want a warmer fuller tone flat wound is way to go and amplified slide with pickup use for blues etc round wound a better choice.

Yeah I know arch top isn't usual route but plenty blues and rock and rollers started with archtops. Including muddy and Elmore James (though his was a round sound hole arch top iirc.

Tbh I play blues, rock&roll and a selection of other stuff and I adore archtops so I am happy with my unusual route. And tbh this archtop has a lovely acoustic tone that I'd say is much closer to tone I want than most jazz boxes anyway

mr-mac · March 2017

Tbh never even thought before... I assume if want round nickel strings I just by very heavy gauge electric ones?

ICBM · March 2017

mr-mac said:

Tbh never even thought before... I assume if want round nickel strings I just by very heavy gauge electric ones?

Yes. They do sound pretty good on archtops too - it's bronze ones that sound too trashy and zingy, which is why a lot of people think old ply archtops sound like that… they don't really, if you string them how they were meant to be. You can get away with bronzes on solid-wood guitars which are inherently softer-sounding.

mr-mac · March 2017

Yeah bronze on it and a little too zingy may experiment with flat wound and round and see what I like best

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model 33 B&H Zenith archtop (photos added)

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