My acoustic-choosing journey

TimmyO · September 2016

Bit of help guys? I've realised I need an acoustic in my life

Well I actually have one but it cost just over £100 about 15 years ago and the action is - well - tough to get along with.

I have (randomly) in the past bought expensive (for me) acoustics without any real idea of what I wanted out of them beyond they seemed nice. Both times I sold them on at a loss.

My hankering to play acoustic and dabble in songwritey things that I lost interest in years ago is strong - so this time I shall research options. This research period is helped by being unemployed currently (i.e. can't afford it) but I've decided to reward myself when I return to work with a purchase.

Here's the starting point: I don't even know what type of acoustic would suit me best.

Dreadnought seems to be the classic singer-songwriter choice (well one of them anyway) - downside being they are a big old beast for a habitual electric player to get a grip on (literally)

000 types are sexy looking - but some have really quite wide spacing making the streamy stuff a bit more of a challenge - but obv nice for finger style (in which I dabble a tiny clumsy bit but quite like)

I'm less familiar with more modern inbetweeny sizes - happy to hear any thoughts.

I suppose I'll be 70ish% strummy, and 30ish% folky/picky.

Today I briefly tried:
A couple Martin low-range Dreads - one was the one with solid top and laminate neck - it sounded quite rich and nice, and played really well. The other was something slightly cheaper still edit - it was a DRSGT model - sounded a little more boomy and less nice.

A Takemine cutaway electro-acoustic dread-ish shape. This had a lovely asymmetrical neck shape and a far more controlled, balance, almost compressed sound that was very nice in a different way.

A low-range Martin 000 type - this was again a more balanced sound - obviously more consistent/kinder for finger style, with less dynamic range when strummed.

I've not tried any jumbos.

Do any of these sound like fair generalisations for these types?

I've been listening to a few online demos (such that they can be relied on) - and my ear is caught by the D-18 : much more expensive but in a test alongside a J-45 (which I have image-lust for) the D-18 kicked its pants.

So, be cool to hear from more accomplished/knowledgeable acoustic folks - and any stories about how you found your preferences, and also any views on the sensibleness of looking used for this kind of thing.

Cheers :-)

octatonic · September 2016

Pretty much bang on.
I am a huge fan of 000's.
I think they are have a fundamentally better design and ergonomics.
Yes, they generally aren't as loud but how often is that actually a problem.
Pickups/mics are the workaround.

rossyamaha · September 2016

Obviously I'm gonna chime in and do my thing.

If you're looking around that kinda price range check the the Yammy L series and A series. There are dreadnought and concert versions of each. Necks are really comfortable too.

octatonic · September 2016

rossyamaha said:

Obviously I'm gonna chime in and do my thing.

If you're looking around that kinda price range check the the Yammy L series and A series. There are dreadnought and concert versions of each. Necks are really comfortable too.

+1.
IMHO Yamaha make some of the best budget acoustics.

mgaw · September 2016

sounds to me you have narrowed it down to a large bodied spruce topped topped mahogany backed guitar...i would try a jumbo....bit more comfortable to play, big sounding, great strummer and fingerstyle guitar...

as for specfic brands best try them out yourself as they do differ from brand to brand and guitar to guitar...but as you seem to like USA sounds alternatives worth considering IMO...Furch/stonebridge...Blueridge...Eastman(maybe) popular state side..Faith (not particularly USA sounding but great bang for the buck...

I played and bought and spent thousands on many acoustics and whilst i love the dry Mahogany tone i missed the complexity of Rosewood, i chose an OM size but with a deeper body, for comfort and versatility...especially with the deeper body (more Bass and richer sound)....best advice i could give is spend as much as you can on an acoustic and try before you buy

rossyamaha · September 2016

octatonic said:

rossyamaha said:

Obviously I'm gonna chime in and do my thing.

If you're looking around that kinda price range check the the Yammy L series and A series. There are dreadnought and concert versions of each. Necks are really comfortable too.

+1.
IMHO Yamaha make the best acoustics and anyone that says otherwise is a steaming pile of turd.

Fixed that for ya. ;-)

octatonic · September 2016

rossyamaha said:

octatonic said:

rossyamaha said:

Obviously I'm gonna chime in and do my thing.

If you're looking around that kinda price range check the the Yammy L series and A series. There are dreadnought and concert versions of each. Necks are really comfortable too.

+1.
IMHO Yamaha make the best acoustics and anyone that says otherwise is a steaming pile of turd.

Fixed that for ya. ;-)

Well, no they don't.
They simply cannot afford to make the sort of guitars the compete with some of the highest end handmade instruments- it isn't a business model that would appeal to a company like Yamaha.

Ervin Somogyi said this: "Comparing a handmade guitar to a factory made one is analogous to comparing a painting with a toaster: the one really needs to be judged by different standards than the other. I wish to stress that I do not wish to malign either luthiers or factories, but rather to point out how very different their products are in spite of the fact that they can look almost exactly alike. "

ToneControl · September 2016

what's the budget and where are you based?

xSkarloey · September 2016

The advice I'd give is that when on your search identify which shapes, makes and models you like the looks of and try them, but don't forget to try unexpected stuff that you see in a shop as well.

Looks are important, but the deal maker/ breaker will of course be feel and above all sound. If you possibly can, go with a guitar playing mate. If not, use the shop staff to help you in your search. What I'm getting at is that obviously you'll want to play it yourself, but it pays real dividends to stand on front of the guitar as someone else plays it. That way you get to hear what an audience would hear or get more of a notion what a mic would pick up.

Good luck!

ToneControl · September 2016

And look at big guitars with narrower waists, dreadnaughts are not as popular with fingerpickers, and I personally think parlours usually sound thin and often boxy compared to Jumbos, auditoriums, etc

Roland · September 2016

Rewarding yourself with a new acoustic is a good idea. They can be very personal items. Much more so that an electric.

It took me a long time to find the right acoustic. You have to play a lot of guitars, of varying styles and from different manufacturers, because they all respond differently. Even two seemingly identical guitars can sound different because of differences in the wood they are made from. Any shop worth its salt understands that, and is accommodating.

So you can look forward to a long and pleasant campaign, visiting as many shops as you can find, and playing as many guitars as possible. If you can manage it then Frailers in Runcorn is worth a visit because they carry so many guitars (or did last time I was there).

xSkarloey · September 2016

All fair points, but I think ultimately there are no hard and fast rules because it's all about the sound that captures the individual imagination. If you take a player like Bert Jansch, one of the finest fingerpickers to date, here's a guy who played mostly 000 type guitars right through to the early 80s, and then went over almost exclusively to a Yamaha dreadnought.

I'm never going to be Bert Jansch, but the acoustic that I've spent the most money on came after a pretty long and exhastive search, trying this, trying that. Initially I went out thinking that dreadnoughts were ubiquitous and that I wanted something smaller, a 000 or the like. In the end though the guitars that captivated me most were a J45 and a Takamine dreadnought. There wasn't much in it in terms of feel or sound, so I saved a few hundred and got the Tak, a lovely thing with cedar top and rosewood back and sides. Ten years on I still have it, and can't see myself parting with it, so I think all the trudging round and thinking it through paid off for me.

On my last recent mooch around the shops I tried various stuff (a Martin mahogany 000; it's cheaper Sigma counterpart; various stuff) and the one guitar that really grabbed my attention and that I thought sounded great was a Taylor GS Mini. I was really, really impressed with everything about it, from the sound to the feel and the plugged in sound. I'm still thinking of getting one, because the fact it's so portable really sweetens the deal.

ToneControl · September 2016

I found that my understanding of what acoustic I can best use as my instrument developed as owning better guitars allowed my playing to finally develop

I mean that, after playing acoustic reasonably competently for almost 30 years, on cheaper guitars, I bought some handmade Pro guitars. Within a year, my playing had improved considerably, because of the subtleties possible. However, after 2-3 years, I found that my "new" playing style was best suited to other Pro acoustics.

Therefore my advice is to get an instrument that is as good as possible, to avoid delaying your progress for decades like I did.
If you had a lot of cash, I'd say look for a used instrument around £700-£1200. Frailers is the best place to try used USA Pro models. Larrivee often offers the best value there.

However: A Used Avalon is probably the best value in the UK, PM me for where else to look other than ebay, in my opinion they are the best value used guitars here in the UK - they are made in the workshop that made most of the existing Lowdens, by the same luthiers, and are still the same quality. Basically, they make the same designs they made when they made for Lowden (other than using conventional string posts), and some newer designs. After having many USA hand made guitars up to the £6k mark, I now have 4 Avalons . I tried some £3000-£4000 Lowdens this week again, and can verify they have the same build/feel/sound quality as my Avalons. The history is that George Lowden struggled to run a profitable business, and a company was set up to build and sell the Lowden guitars. When the license agreement expired, the name was taken away from the workshop. Be aware that some guitars were made in the far East under the Avalon name for 5 years or so (2003-2008 I think), called "Silver series" etc. Anything saying "made in Ireland" will be the same quality as Lowden. http://www.adirondackguitar.com/lefty/avalon/history.htm

Failing that, there are solid-top guitars available for around £500 new, some of which are good but unfashionable enough to be cheap second hand. I don't know all the brands, but I do know a few (agreeing with @mgaw

:

I have a Blueridge Tenor, which was £450-£500 new, which is good, and I know the full size 6 string version got very good reviews in the US acoustic magazine. I would expect £300 used, but one went for £170 recently: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blueridge-Br63-Acoustic-Guitar-/262508245375?hash=item3d1eb5f17f:g:~owAAOSw7ehXRfcp
I have also tried Stonebridge/Furch at shows - they do feel like properly made acoustics, and are responsive in a way cheaper brands are not. Looks like they are £600 or so used, although one went for £275 recently

Lewy · September 2016

ToneControl said:

I found that my understanding of what acoustic I can best use as my instrument developed as owning better guitars allowed my playing to finally develop

I mean that, after playing acoustic reasonably competently for almost 30 years, on cheaper guitars, I bought some handmade Pro guitars. Within a year, my playing had improved considerably, because of the subtleties possible. However, after 2-3 years, I found that my "new" playing style was best suited to other Pro acoustics.

Therefore my advice is to get an instrument that is as good as possible, to avoid delaying your progress for decades like I did.

Same journey here, albeit with a different destination, in that the classic American designs and variation thereof was where I found what I was looking for.

A lot depends on how into acoustic playing you're going to get, as opposed to playing on an acoustic. There's a whole world of technical nuance that can inform your final choice of instrument but you may not be looking to get that in depth... in which case I'd stick with your original thoughts around a J45 especially of you are (rightly) taken with the design.

TimmyO · September 2016

Guys, I actually need to pop in to central London this afternoon - top recommendations for finding a wide range of quality acoustics in one place?

BigLicks67 · September 2016

If you have got the budget for a D18 then go for the D28 it's a do it all guitar with a great sound and can be picked used for a massive saving. I have a D28 and a OM18V and while the OM is a very nice guitar the D28 is the more versatile.

TimmyO · September 2016

BigLicks67 said:

If you have got the budget for a D18 then go for the D28 it's a do it all guitar with a great sound and can be picked used for a massive saving. I have a D28 and a OM18V and while the OM is a very nice guitar the D28 is the more versatile.

If I end up going for that sort of thing it will only be secondhand - I'll try the D range as soon as I can

crunchman · September 2016

TimmyO said:

Guys, I actually need to pop in to central London this afternoon - top recommendations for finding a wide range of quality acoustics in one place?

In central London Ivor Mairant's is good - it's 5 minutes walk from Denmark Street so you can look around there as well. The shop on Charing Cross road 100m or so south of Denmark Street has some nice stuff in the basement including Furch which aren't always easy to find. Macari's used to be in that shop but I don't know whether it's Macari's now or someone else. In Denmark Street itself Wunjo's have some amazing Lowdens plus a selection of other stuff. There is also the Westside (Martin Distributor) shop. They have the nice stuff upstairs and you have to ask to go up there.

Edit: Some of these might be a bit overpriced being around Denmark Street. If you want to buy then use your phone to check prices elsewhere and then haggle.

BigLicks67 said:

If you have got the budget for a D18 then go for the D28 it's a do it all guitar with a great sound and can be picked used for a massive saving. I have a D28 and a OM18V and while the OM is a very nice guitar the D28 is the more versatile.

I'd take a new production D18 over a D28 any day since 2012 when they went back to the pre-war forward shifted bracing on the D18. The standard D28 still has the post-war bracing and it just sounds dead to me. If you want a good sounding Martin 28 spec you need to get something like an HD28V. If I wanted a rosewood back and sides Martin I'd actually prefer the 16 series to a D28.

ToneControl · September 2016

Ivor Mairants is the best in London for acoustics
I was there on Wednesday, good stock in at the minute

Try the Lowdens and Santa Cruz in particular
The Brook ones are a little less to my personal taste - you need to find what you like
Any Lowden you try should have an Avalon equivalent, so make a note of any one you like

Personally I usually prefer Rosewood back and sides and a cedar top nowadays - warmer than spruce

Wunjos acoustic shop currently smells like an old damp cellar ( assume because of the rebuilding work going on in the building), and I didn't want to spend more than one minute in there - I could smell a lot of mould spores. I would be vary wary of buying an acoustic from there until after the building is completed and the stock is cleared and replaced

Best ranges of acoustics in the country is in Brighton (acoustic music company)
then around the country, shops like
Sounds Great
Coda

ToneControl · September 2016

btw there is a Larrivee SD-50 in Wunjos
worth a look to see what quality Larrivee produce, since they are often cheap used

Try to avoid the temptation to buy a Taylor, I feel there are better guitars available for the same price, many find Taylors to not sound as good acoustically as other guitars at the same price . Taylors are not usually good value second hand

octatonic · September 2016

ToneControl said:

Ivor Mairants is the best in London for acoustics
I was there on Wednesday, good stock in at the minute

Try the Lowdens and Santa Cruz in particular
The Brook ones are a little less to my personal taste - you need to find what you like
Any Lowden you try should have an Avalon equivalent, so make a note of any one you like

Personally I usually prefer ... a cedar top nowadays - warmer than spruce

You are right to a degree but build choices such as bracing thickness and pattern can override wood species.

If you build a spruce topped guitar with light, thin braces it will have a fuller, bigger tone than an overbuilt cedar topped guitar, if all other factors are equal.

Have a read of this: http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/cedar-vs-spruce-tops-classical-guitar/

ArchtopDave · September 2016

Have you considered making your own Acoustic? Obviously you'll need to decide on Body size and woods etc. I did a Thread here on my OM(ish) Build with Mark Bailey earlier in the year. You never quite know the final result 'till it's strung up, but I'm really pleased with the guitar I made.

OM Acoustic Build (Mark Bailey Course) The finished guitar photos are on Page 6.

ToneControl · September 2016

octatonic said:

ToneControl said:

Personally I usually prefer ... a cedar top nowadays - warmer than spruce

You are right to a degree but build choices such as bracing thickness and pattern can override wood species.

If you build a spruce topped guitar with light, thin braces it will have a fuller, bigger tone than an overbuilt cedar topped guitar, if all other factors are equal.

Have a read of this: http://www.thisisclassicalguitar.com/cedar-vs-spruce-tops-classical-guitar/

I agree, I'm really talking about when spruce and cedar are options on the same model from the same maker

TimmyO · October 2016

OK, yesterday afternoon I went in to Westside (Martins) and Macaris (in to the little 'please ask before trying room' where they have their nice stuff)

In Westside I initially compared a D-18 with a D-28 - at first I like both similarly, but differently. Then I also tried a D-35. Then a HD-28V. Then a M-something. (M-36 maybe? Apparently the M- size is sort of a 0000 i.e. a bit bigger again than a 000) For quite a while I wasn't hearing terribly much to make one of the different Dreads "better than" (rather than different to) the others - but at some point they started to seem more distinctive and my preference became the D-18, followed by the HD-28V and M-36 each equally for different reasons.

But the quick response and lighter construction of the D-18 I ended up really liking.

The problem was though it was really hard to pick up much detail - the metal-tastic guitar wailing from the other floor was really loud, and the street noise of trucks and buses going by was just as bad. I didn't realise just how bad this was until I went in to Macaris little quiet room and everything sounded a gajillion times better, just because I could hear it properly.

In Macari's I tried:
a Furch D-20 cutaway - sounded nice.
A J-45 (sounded bloody lovely - but by this point I was realising that I really hadn't been hearing the Martins anywhere nearly as clearly, so the comparison was nigh on impossible)
A couple of older/used things that I need to look at my phone pics of to remember.

Also, as was said above Wunjo's acoustic store reeks of mold. If it was a house viewing I'd turn around and leave. Anything that's been in there long is going to stink when you get it home surely :-/

I look forward to trying more.

AliGorie · October 2016

Timmy, I was in u’r shoes a few years back, only difference was I’d been an ‘acoustic’ player for 20 yrs and had stopped playing for about 15 yrs - so coming back to it - Mmm - what to buy.
I won’t get into this vs that, guitars are a very personal thing.
Did a lot of looking and trying out makes / styles / woods / and found myself being being ‘channel’ towards the Eastman range and finally (for what I do - solo fingerpicking instrumental tunes) getting a little Mahogany OM which they call it - actually it’s more an 000 (25 inch scale).
I got it ex shop demo for just over 500.
This guitar impresses most who hear it, with the right choice of strings folks have said “theres not 2 - 3 k difference between the sound of it and Martins, Collings, or Bourgeois.
I’d not compare it that way, it is a 500 quid guitar but it does everything I want it to including playing live into mics - need to get a pickup installed.
Prices can vary and have gone up since I bought (2013) and shops like guitar guitar jumping on the bandwagon fairly recently but charging top buck !!.
Other brands that get good reports as well are Blueridge.-
heres the forums for both -
http://theunofficialblueridgeguitarforum18213.yuku.com/directory#.V--tbdwsF3k

heres some examples of whats on offer
good luck

http://www.sheehans.com/product/eastman-e20ss-acoustic-guitar/e20ss?TRE00003

http://www.sheehans.com/product/eastman-e20d-acoustic-guitar/e20d?TRE00003

http://www.sheehans.com/product/eastman-e10om-acoustic-guitar/e10om?TRE00003

http://www.ivormairants.co.uk/guitar-and-bass/brands/eastman/eastman-e10-ss-slope-shoulder-adirondack-top.html?___SID=U

http://www.ivormairants.co.uk/guitar-and-bass/brands/eastman/eastman-ac-gace1-grand-auditorium-electro-acoustic.html?___SID=U

olafgarten · October 2016

Try out some high end Sigma Guitars, the OMRC-28E is really good.

crunchman · October 2016

@TimmyO if you can find one of the higher series (32,33,34) Furch they might be a bit better than the D20.

TheBigDipper · October 2016

I've got a Furch 12 string (actually branded as Stonebridge - their attempt to 'Anglicise' the brand name for the US market). It's great sounding for the money (£1,350 in 2013), hand built, plays well and stays in tune. I'll make sure to try a Furch when/if I decide to upgrade my 6 string acoustic. The only thing I don't like about it is it's a bit glossy and fancy for my personal tastes. Get 'em now whilst they still enter the country without tariffs... :-)

TimmyO · October 2016

Cheers.

There's a Youtube channel 'Stageshop' that has a load of demos of these - some lovely sounding stuff

Lewy · October 2016

TimmyO said:

Cheers.

There's a Youtube channel 'Stageshop' that has a load of demos of these - some lovely sounding stuff

If you haven't already discovered "The Acoustic Letter" on Youtube then it's an excellent source of demos for Martins, Gibsons and a few other US makers too. Even if it just helps tune your ear into different body styles/sounds.

TimmyO · October 2016

Lewy said:

TimmyO said:

Cheers.

There's a Youtube channel 'Stageshop' that has a load of demos of these - some lovely sounding stuff

If you haven't already discovered "The Acoustic Letter" on Youtube then it's an excellent source of demos for Martins, Gibsons and a few other US makers too. Even if it just helps tune your ear into different body styles/sounds.

yep, subscribed over the weekend :-) ta

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