Preamp / FX for acoustic guitar

ToneControl · September 2016

my mate uses a Bose system or the house PA when he plays live (solo act)
He's playing acoustic and singing
the built in mixer and fx sounds poor from the Bose - thin and fizzy
We were looking around at good preamps that might give nice EQ, reverb, compression

his main guitar has a magnetic pickup, which sounds fine into my recording gear and monitors with no EQ
Also he plays a tricone resonator with a transducer
so maybe 2 inputs with different settings could be useful, but a single-channel one for the main guitar would still be worth considering

The fishman preamps look promising, but local shops don't stock them

any advice?

ICBM · September 2016

ToneControl said:

The fishman preamps look promising, but local shops don't stock them

Avoid the Fishman Aura for that - they don't work well with magnetic pickups, body transducers or resonator guitars at all, they're best with a plain undersaddle transducer.

The Boss AD-5 is pretty nice and has both piezo and magnetic input options, although it doesn't have compression.

To be honest I would probably look at a small acoustic amp with two channels though - that will give you better control over your own sound and monitoring even if you're then connecting it to the PA as well.

ToneControl · September 2016

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

The fishman preamps look promising, but local shops don't stock them

Avoid the Fishman Aura for that - they don't work well with magnetic pickups, body transducers or resonator guitars at all, they're best with a plain undersaddle transducer.

The Boss AD-5 is pretty nice and has both piezo and magnetic input options, although it doesn't have compression.

To be honest I would probably look at a small acoustic amp with two channels though - that will give you better control over your own sound and monitoring even if you're then connecting it to the PA as well.

thanks for that
I will look into the AD-5

unfortunately, he's disabled, and needs to travel light, so would prefer not to take an amp.
He's looking at paying pro prices, if cheaper stuff won't suffice

Originally I had pointed him to the Yamaha AG stomp, which I found quite good, but that didn't work out
I see Radial do a few things, but I just haven't researched acoustic preamps much, for me it's either mic'd or into my AxeFX2, which must be the most overlooked acoustic preamp in existence - studio level reverbs, complex delays, multi-band compressors and IR of guitar bodies, plus any other fun stuff.

guitarfishbay · September 2016

Bias app has some acoustic stuff in an add on. May be worth a look if they have a smartphone/tablet and small interface

ToneControl · September 2016

guitarfishbay said:

Bias app has some acoustic stuff in an add on. May be worth a look if they have a smartphone/tablet and small interface

he's a bit old school for that, sorry

paganskins · September 2016

Is one of these too high-tech? Ignoring it's vocal processing abilities for guitar it's got EQ, reverb, compression and some other useful features like feedback busting, delays, chorus etc. The effects are TC Electronic ones like hall of fame, flashback, corona etc.

Possibly most importantly it's includes bodyrez, which anecdotally plays OK with transducers and magnetic pickups but I'm not sure about helping the resonator tone – might add a bit of body?

Adding a 3 switch will allow turning selected effects on the fly.

Image: http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/750/VLPlayAc-large.jpg

I ordered a b-stock one from thomann then realised I'd be better of with its bigger brother (voicelive 3), I'm waiting to hear if they'll let me return it if not I'll be looking to move it on for £190 posted (the price it cost me).

steamabacus · September 2016

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

Bidley · September 2016

I used to use a Zoom 504II. I loved it so much I bought two. They're cheap, tiny and pretty easy to program. If your mate is interested I can part with one.

The Radial stuff is the nuts (I use a PZ-PRE) but it's not cheap.

ToneControl · September 2016

Bidley said:

I used to use a Zoom 504II. I loved it so much I bought two. They're cheap, tiny and pretty easy to program. If your mate is interested I can part with one.

The Radial stuff is the nuts (I use a PZ-PRE) but it's not cheap.

the zoom would be no good for him, PZ-pre might work, I wondered about those. EQ is shared though isn't it?

ToneControl · September 2016

paganskins said:

Is one of these too high-tech? Ignoring it's vocal processing abilities for guitar it's got EQ, reverb, compression and some other useful features like feedback busting, delays, chorus etc. The effects are TC Electronic ones like hall of fame, flashback, corona etc.

Possibly most importantly it's includes bodyrez, which anecdotally plays OK with transducers and magnetic pickups but I'm not sure about helping the resonator tone – might add a bit of body?

Adding a 3 switch will allow turning selected effects on the fly.

I ordered a b-stock one from thomann then realised I'd be better of with its bigger brother (voicelive 3), I'm waiting to hear if they'll let me return it if not I'll be looking to move it on for £190 posted (the price it cost me).

ta
I'd send it back if I were you, the new price is less than £190 now btw, B stock is lower still
I've passed on the recommendation, but I think if he got one he'd be better getting the 3 year warranty in his own name

ToneControl · September 2016

steamabacus said:

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

crazy price surely???

paganskins · September 2016

ToneControl said:

I'd send it back if I were you, the new price is less than £190 now btw, B stock is lower still
I've passed on the recommendation, but I think if he got one he'd be better getting the 3 year warranty in his own name

Fair enough, thomann were fine about returning it and even paid the postage so it went off yesterday.

Jalapeno · September 2016

I have a Boss AD-3 great for de-Piezo-ing electo-acoustic sound + chorus/reverb

There's a full monty AD-8 these days too with all sorts of stuff.

Bidley · September 2016

ToneControl said:

Bidley said:

I used to use a Zoom 504II. I loved it so much I bought two. They're cheap, tiny and pretty easy to program. If your mate is interested I can part with one.

The Radial stuff is the nuts (I use a PZ-PRE) but it's not cheap.

the zoom would be no good for him, PZ-pre might work, I wondered about those. EQ is shared though isn't it?

Yeah the EQ is shared which is a bit of a pain. It's the only pedal (I could find) with two switchable inputs though, which is why I got it.

ToneControl · September 2016

He's bought a TC, I will test it with him tonight

steamabacus · September 2016

ToneControl said:

steamabacus said:

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

crazy price surely???

Well, only as crazy as global economics?

As their website says, "Orchid products are hand made in small batches in the UK"

Orchid are a small UK company producing pro-spec electronics by hand - which is never going to be as cheap as Chinese-built mainstream brands. Crazy? Maybe, maybe not?

Even Feline guitars are struggling to make guitar production profitable/sustainable and they're not exactly cheap.

FelineGuitars · September 2016

steamabacus said:

ToneControl said:

steamabacus said:

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

crazy price surely???

Well, only as crazy as global economics?

As their website says, "Orchid products are hand made in small batches in the UK"

Orchid are a small UK company producing pro-spec electronics by hand - which is never going to be as cheap as Chinese-built mainstream brands. Crazy? Maybe, maybe not?

Even Feline guitars are struggling to make guitar production profitable/sustainable and they're not exactly cheap.

To be fair that may be down to fixed expenses and rising other costs in our case added to exhaustion on my part making things be less efficient than they ought to be.
i agree with the point of small scale British made stuff having a higher price through labour costs and material costs as well as legislative burdens that may not exist in places like China

ToneControl · September 2016

steamabacus said:

ToneControl said:

steamabacus said:

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

crazy price surely???

Well, only as crazy as global economics?

As their website says, "Orchid products are hand made in small batches in the UK"

Orchid are a small UK company producing pro-spec electronics by hand - which is never going to be as cheap as Chinese-built mainstream brands. Crazy? Maybe, maybe not?

I'm not as wound up as this sounds, so don't take it to heart:
Making simple electronics in small batches, by hand in the UK is not going to compare well with Chinese factories, for various reasons. It's not an adequate explanation though - what is the benefit to the user of having small-batch electronics?
Why aren't iPhones made this way?
we are talking about a single-channel preamp with BMT + Vol, costing £180, and it looks like an old Maplin kit tbh

ToneControl · September 2016

paganskins said:

Is one of these too high-tech? Ignoring it's vocal processing abilities for guitar it's got EQ, reverb, compression and some other useful features like feedback busting, delays, chorus etc. The effects are TC Electronic ones like hall of fame, flashback, corona etc.

Possibly most importantly it's includes bodyrez, which anecdotally plays OK with transducers and magnetic pickups but I'm not sure about helping the resonator tone – might add a bit of body?

Adding a 3 switch will allow turning selected effects on the fly.

I ordered a b-stock one from thomann then realised I'd be better of with its bigger brother (voicelive 3), I'm waiting to hear if they'll let me return it if not I'll be looking to move it on for £190 posted (the price it cost me).

well, we tested it, and it added an awful lot of noise to the guitar, and offered no real EQ options - Flat EQ or guitar body IR that sounded like a stuck flanger. I did a factory reset to make sure I had not missed anything, no joy
It seems to me it's mostly intended for vocalists I'm afraid

We revisited the Bose L1 mixer, which did better on its own

I now think he needs a 4 channel mixer, with 3 channel EQ, gate, comp and reverb on each channel
any recommendations

EreforGuitarGear · September 2016

I've been trying to find another Dennis Marshall Acoustic Preamp. I can't for the life of me find one... But keep an eye out for them as they are great.

crunchman · September 2016

ToneControl said:

steamabacus said:

ToneControl said:

steamabacus said:

Would need an addition unit for the fx, but the Orchid pre-amp is well regarded -
http://www.orchid-electronics.co.uk/acoustic.htm

crazy price surely???

Well, only as crazy as global economics?

As their website says, "Orchid products are hand made in small batches in the UK"

Orchid are a small UK company producing pro-spec electronics by hand - which is never going to be as cheap as Chinese-built mainstream brands. Crazy? Maybe, maybe not?

I'm not as wound up as this sounds, so don't take it to heart:
Making simple electronics in small batches, by hand in the UK is not going to compare well with Chinese factories, for various reasons. It's not an adequate explanation though - what is the benefit to the user of having small-batch electronics?
Why aren't iPhones made this way?
we are talking about a single-channel preamp with BMT + Vol, costing £180, and it looks like an old Maplin kit tbh

The mass made Chinese stuff will use cheap surface mounted components, and probably lots of ICs. I haven't looked inside one but I'd be willing to bet that the Orchid one will be high quality discrete components. The Chinese ones wouldn't be so cheap if they used good quality discrete components.

If the Chinese built stuff in question comes from TC then in my experience you've only got about a 50% chance of it lasting 5 years without breaking as well.

ToneControl · September 2016

crunchman said:

ToneControl said:

as this sounds, so don't take it to heart:
Making simple electronics in small batches, by hand in the UK is not going to compare well with Chinese factories, for various reasons. It's not an adequate explanation though - what is the benefit to the user of having small-batch electronics?
Why aren't iPhones made this way?
we are talking about a single-channel preamp with BMT + Vol, costing £180, and it looks like an old Maplin kit tbh

The mass made Chinese stuff will use cheap surface mounted components, and probably lots of ICs. I haven't looked inside one but I'd be willing to bet that the Orchid one will be high quality discrete components. The Chinese ones wouldn't be so cheap if they used good quality discrete components.

If the Chinese built stuff in question comes from TC then in my experience you've only got about a 50% chance of it lasting 5 years without breaking as well.

I don't believe the slightly-racist idea that the Chinese factories can't solder PCBs together as well as a cottage-industry firm in the UK

What's great about discrete components anyway (actually, it could well be ICs in there)?

crunchman · September 2016

It's not the soldering together so much as the design and the quality of the components. The soldering may actually be more consistent. Most "boutique" manufacturers (pedals and amps as well) will go for much higher quality components than you get in the mass market stuff which is made at the lowest possible cost. It could be made in China or elsewhere. It's just that most of it is made in China.

You can hand build something with rubbish components but most cottage industry types will use higher quality components. For example they use good quality film capacitors rather than cheapo ceramics. They will probably over-engineer it a bit as well. If a capacitor rated for 16V is 10p cheaper per thousand than a 25V one then the mass manufacturer will use the 16V one. The small guy will use a 25V one to get a bit of a safety factor. As an example this is why it's safe to run Fulltone (and some other boutique manufacturers') drive pedals at 18V where it's not a good idea with the cheaper mass market stuff.

It's a matter of what your priorities are when you are designing as much as anything. The big manufacturers will compromise on long term maintainability, and possibly on component quality that might get you the extra 2% so that they can make it cheaply. If it dies within the warranty period it's cheaper for them to just shove in a new board, or give you a replacement. If it dies after the warranty is up, you often have an unrepairable brick - as I know from experience with some TC stuff.

I know from experience that TC pedals have PCB mount jack sockets and switches. The circuit board can be populated by a machine and it costs peanuts. When they break you have a real problem. Best case they are a fiddle to repair. Worst case it's a bespoke component that you can't get and/or whatever broke the jack has cracked the PCB. A lot of the small cottage industry types will use chassis mounted jacks. The board will never get any stress from someone treading on the cable and they are a doddle to replace. It is what your design priorities are.

AuldReekie · September 2016

ToneControl said:

ICBM said:

ToneControl said:

The fishman preamps look promising, but local shops don't stock them

Avoid the Fishman Aura for that - they don't work well with magnetic pickups, body transducers or resonator guitars at all, they're best with a plain undersaddle transducer.

The Boss AD-5 is pretty nice and has both piezo and magnetic input options, although it doesn't have compression.

To be honest I would probably look at a small acoustic amp with two channels though - that will give you better control over your own sound and monitoring even if you're then connecting it to the PA as well.

thanks for that
I will look into the AD-5

unfortunately, he's disabled, and needs to travel light, so would prefer not to take an amp.
He's looking at paying pro prices, if cheaper stuff won't suffice

Originally I had pointed him to the Yamaha AG stomp, which I found quite good, but that didn't work out
I see Radial do a few things, but I just haven't researched acoustic preamps much, for me it's either mic'd or into my AxeFX2, which must be the most overlooked acoustic preamp in existence - studio level reverbs, complex delays, multi-band compressors and IR of guitar bodies, plus any other fun stuff.

I have boh the Boss AD5 and its big brother, the AD8 and whilst both are good, it's the AD5 I actually get a better sound with. I only have piezo p/ups so cannot comment on their performance with magnetic pick ups. As already mentioned, there is no compression but tone quality and variety of tone available, is very very good.

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