Looking at getting a Martin 000

MelodicLydian · February 2023

I’m mainly an electric player with a preference for light strings but have taken an interest in fingerpicking in the last few years after seeing Tommy Emmanuel live and being inspired by his compositions. It really is a whole other world but I even finally got a Dunlop thumb pick to try rather than only using hybrid picking or just my thumb and fingers.

I picked up a second hand 2011 Ibanez EP10 a few years back for about half the new price as I liked the thin more comfortable body and whilst it has some wear and tear and was obviously primarily designed to be plugged in it actually sounds pretty good acoustically to me and over time has improved.

I also have an old Korean made Ovation 12–string having tried and sold on cheap dreadnought types that I just found too uncomfortable and difficult to play for any length of time. With light strings (an 8 for the high g) the Ovation is more or less manageable.

I’ve been interested in trying a more traditional acoustic and whilst nowhere local seems to actually stock the models that sounded most appealing (whenever I get interested in a guitar this is usually the case so mostly I end up buying mail order and hoping for the best for this reason).

I initially wanted to try a Martin 000-15m because of the great feedback and reviews but the narrower nut made me change my mind on that. I did at last get to try a few low end Martins - a 00X2E and a 000-10E. The bodies were of course deeper than my Ibanez but not uncomfortable. I didn’t however think the 00X2E sounded any better than my Ibanez. The 000-10E had a much richer sound and a lot of volume. This seems a good deal for the money and whilst I can’t justify the higher end standard USA models (000-18 up) I do currently have the budget for more basic USA made one which takes me to the 000-17 Whiskey Sunset or at a push the more recent Streetmaster 000-16.

The 17 aesthetically looks better to me and is a good amount cheaper but in theory the streetmaster is higher spec. The look I could get used to I imagine - I have seen a photo where a pick guard was added and it helped make it look less severe.

Anyone have experience of these two or I’m I better either just getting the 000-10e or saving for a higher end model?

jw_H-535 · February 2023

Acoustics are one of those things where there’s such variation from guitar to guitar you often could have two of the same model and one will be great and the other just ok. If your looking to the lower end of Martin, I’d have a serious look at sigma aswell. They make Martin style models at affordable prices and are absolutely knock out for the money.

Tannin · February 2023

I think there is a very good argument for buying a 000-18. Lovely little guitars. Yes, overpriced by quite a factor, but good.

I am less convinced by the 15 and 16 series Martins. For the same money you can have any of a wide range of models from many different makers of quality: Furch, Taylor, Maton, made-in-Japan Takamine, and I understand from people here that Dowina are doing good stuff too. For the price of a 16-series Martin you should be able to buy instruments from any of those just-mentioned makers equal in quality to a Standard Series Martin.

If you want the short scale as well as the small(ish) body, that gets a bit more difficult. Martin may well be your best bet. (Takamine Japan make some lovely small instruments they call "New Yorkers" but nearly always with those horribly narrow 42.5mm nuts. What a shame - I'd have bought one long since otherwise.)

Gandalph · February 2023

Imo for fingerpicking string spacing at the saddle is just as/more relevant than nut width. The issue with most standard modern Martin's is it's too tight at 2 5/32".

I'm not too sure about the 000-17 you mentioned, I think that one maybe a bit wider, maybe someone else's will know?

If you are looking for a 000 for fingerpicking the 12 fret 000-15sm is excellent and has 2 1/4" spacing at the saddle.

I recently bought a used Martin custom shop 12 fret 0-15, based on the 000-15sm but scaled down and with a 24.9 scale length. It's 10 years old so the mahogany has had time to be played in, it's a lovely little thing.

Gandalph · February 2023

The 000-15sm also has a 1 3/4" nut.

guitarjack66 · February 2023

What do the numbers after the 000 signify? Is it a size or just model number?

thomasross20 · February 2023

Martin O/OO/OOO18 is closest to Larrivee (my fave, obviously!) I tried in GG. Agree re OOO15 narrow neck being the bummer for that guitar.

Tannin · February 2023

guitarjack66 said:

What do the numbers after the 000 signify? Is it a size or just model number?

In the Martin world, -18 signifies mahogany back and sides while -28 means rosewood. Those two numbers are always as you expect. They also tend to use some others, probably consistently but I'd have to look them up to be sure. These are -21 (same as -28 but lower spec) and -45 (same as -28 with extra bling).

There are others but those are ones I remember off the top of my head.

drofluf · February 2023

Tannin said:

guitarjack66 said:

What do the numbers after the 000 signify? Is it a size or just model number?

In the Martin world, -18 signifies mahogany back and sides while -28 means rosewood. Those two numbers are always as you expect. They also tend to use some others, probably consistently but I'd have to look them up to be sure. These are -21 (same as -28 but lower spec) and -45 (same as -28 with extra bling).

There are others but those are ones I remember off the top of my head.

Everything (and more!) that you ever wanted to know about Martin taxonomy https://www.martinguitar.com/blog-categories/tips-tutorials/blog-062321-What-Does-D-28-Really-Mean.html

DavidR · February 2023

Martin OOO18 Modern Deluxe for £3,879?
Martin 000-18 Modern Deluxe | guitarguitar

or Larrivee OOO40 for £1,849?
Larrivee 000-40 Mahogany Legacy Series - Guitar.co.uk

Martins are not the only beautifully made OOO's - just amongst the most expensive!! Other makes are parking on Martin's lawn now because of overpricing

ditchboy · February 2023

Larrivee is a brilliant brand. Their OM models always stood out to me. Particularly the hog.

MelodicLydian · February 2023

Thanks for all the info and tips - looks like I should do some more investigating before risking online.

Ideally I was hoping to keep it under 2k and closer to 1.5 would be better still. A 14 fret neck joint this time - I hear there is a sweeter tone advantage with 12 but just loosing the cutaway will seem odd when I have full access now and 24 frets. Maybe I can add a 12 later

I’m still tempted by the specs of the Street Master 000-16 as from what I read it is the cosmetically imperfect woods that would have been used in their higher end models. I’d just have to get used to that finish…

Looking at the specs of my EP10 it says it is an Englemann Spruce top with mahogany back and sides, x-bracing and a mahogany neck. That is the sound I am familiar with I guess so I’m not sure how Adirondack and rosewood compare?

I can only say that Sepele for everything in that 000-10e was very different and not in a bad way.

Other brands certainly do offer better deals and I do keep hearing good things. It would be easier if I know what sound I wanted for sure. I’m mainly trying to learn the easier TE stuff and some of the finger style arrangements of songs in books.

ditchboy · February 2023

Depending on where you are there’s a Larrivee OM on Gumtree now. OM40 rosewood. I’d think you could get that down to £1300- £1400 or so.

Tannin · February 2023

MelodicLydian said:

Looking at the specs of my EP10 it says it is an Englemann Spruce top with mahogany back and sides, x-bracing and a mahogany neck. That is the sound I am familiar with I guess so I’m not sure how Adirondack and rosewood compare?

I can only say that Sepele for everything in that 000-10e was very different and not in a bad way.

Very different!

Sapele is broadly similar to mahogany. Although a different genus it is in the same family. It is a little heavier and quite a bit harder. (It might be useful to consider its weight compared to other common tonewoods. The raw figures are meaningless without context but in relative terms Sapele has 81% of Indian Rosewood's density. Khaya ("African mahogany") has 77%, and Honduran Mahogany (aka "genuine mahogany") 71%.)

Back to the main question, what makes Adirondack spruce (more correctly known as Red Spruce) and rosewood different to Englemann and mahogany?

Red Spruce is the hardest and often stiffest of the common topwood timbers (Western Red Cedar, Sitka, European, Red, and Englemann Spruce) but isn't much heavier. It is more difficult to excite (because it is stiff it doesn't want to start vibrating) but once it does start to move it is loud and clear with a particularly crisp note. This makes it prized among bluegrass players (who need volume to keep up with banjos) and anyone looking for maximum volume. It can also have a lovely clear, bell-like tone. On the other hand, it can be very difficult to play softly or with good dynamics (it tends to be a bit all or nothing) and that crisp tone can get a bit wearing.

Rosewood - these days it is usually Indian Rosewood - is the hardest and heaviest of the commonly used back and sides woods. It tends to produce a rich bass and a very rich top end with not a lot of middle. Rosewood guitars usually have a rich, plummy sound, bell-like or glassy at the top end, and often with a big bass underneath. It's a great sound and rosewood is the single most popular back wood for good reason. But it too has drawbacks. Like Red Spruce, it can be a bit too much of a good thing. That lush rosewood sound gets a bit same-old, same-old (you hear it everywhere) and it can be cloying, like a cake with too much sugar - it tastes great for the first bite but you soon get sick of it.

(FWIW, of my seven guitars, one uses Indian Rosewood; I play it regularly and like it a lot but have no plans to add another one. One is enough. Another one of my seven has a Red Spruce top and I struggle with it. It has a great sound at its best but is difficult to control. It is very good for loud country-style picking (bluegrass and similar) if you do it just so, and can be excellent for blues fingerpicking, but playing any other style on it and sounding good requires unrelenting concentration. Yes, I can do that (sort of) but what is the point when I can get an even better sound much more easily (and enjoyably!) on any of the other guitars? I plan to sell that one, but reluctantly. What it does well it does brilliantly.)

Englemann Spruce is the lightest and second-softest of the common spruces - it is barely any heavier than Western Red Cedar. It has a gentle subtlety to it and doesn't like being worked too hard. If you play softly or with medium weight, Englemann can be a great choice but thrash it and it sulks. Red Spruce is the opposite!

TLDR: very different timbers! Hard to get two pairings more different.

DISCLAIMER: for all my yammer-yammer about timbers, a competent guitar maker can use (almost) any timbers to get (almost) any result. The paragraphs above are about what you can usually expect, all else being equal. Actual individual guitars you can pick up in a shop mostly more-or-less follow the expectations above but that's a "mostly", not an "always". In short, you have to try them for yourself.

RickLucas · February 2023

The Blueridge 143 has a great spec for the price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZzzOzucVLM

bertie · February 2023

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