Dead strings in shops

Shadow · December 2022

I'm sure this subject will have been done to death here, but anyway... I'm in London for the weekend so I thought I'd pay Hank's in Denmark Street a visit to try the Terry Packs they've got in stock as they seem to be good value. I tried two OMRCs and two SJRSs. They were all really easy to play but I've got no idea how they sound as the strings were ancient. The SJRSs date from 2016 and 2017 and the strings are almost certainly the originals.

I tried maybe 10 or a dozen other guitars in the 2-5K range, mostly Martins but also Taylors, Guilds and a Lowden S35, expecting to be blown away by at least some of them but it was the same story with just about all of them, old, dead strings. There wasn't a guitar I played today that I'd have taken over my £900 Furch Blue OM-CM. I don't know how these places ever sell a guitar when just about their entire stock sounds dead and muffled. I can't believe they don't have a rolling program of string replacement. Maybe the rely on online sales.

Tannin · December 2022

Most new guitars come with coated strings these days, which should (and usually do) last 6-12 months if they are not played much. Anyone selling a used guitar should have enough sense to put new strings on it. Most of the guitars in most of the shops I've visited have had OK strings. I suspect an issue with the weather recently. Some weather makes guitars sound awful. Has it been humid? Has it changed over the last month or so?

Shadow · December 2022

I don't worry about RH levels here in the UK but it's been wet recently. Most of the strings on the guitars I played were visible old and tarnished though. The Terry Pack strings felt too rough to have been coated. No wonder they haven't been able to shift them for so long.

Tannin · December 2022

Humidity can be an issue anywhere.In the States, of course, they are obsessed with it, and rightly so because they have such a crazy climate and then over-manage it with excessive heating and cooling. (Well;, "climates" - Florida is not Boston is not Seattle.) Here in Oz it's the same as the UK - i.e., humidity is a non-issue most of the time. But every place has the odd period when the humidity spikes, and it sounds as if that is the case for you just now.

Those dead strings could make them a bargain seeing that no-one else is going to be interested! You have to feel confident of your ability to estimate the true sound of a guitar from the way it sounds with crook strings though. The one time I bought a guitar with crook strings (my Guild, which was second-hand and had strings out of Jurassic Park) I decided that it was going to sound OK. But once the shopkeeper realised that I was genuinely interested in it, he offered to restring it on the spot. $12 for a set of D'Addarios to seal a $1500 sale has to be worthwhile for him.

Mellish · December 2022

I'd have asked for the strings to be replaced, I think.

But i can understand why the strings were dead. Lord alone knows how many people had played those guitars, not all with clean hands!

Shadow · December 2022

Tannin said:

Humidity can be an issue anywhere.In the States, of course, they are obsessed with it, and rightly so because they have such a crazy climate and then over-manage it with excessive heating and cooling. (Well;, "climates" - Florida is not Boston is not Seattle.) Here in Oz it's the same as the UK - i.e., humidity is a non-issue most of the time. But every place has the odd period when the humidity spikes, and it sounds as if that is the case for you just now.

Those dead strings could make them a bargain seeing that no-one else is going to be interested! You have to feel confident of your ability to estimate the true sound of a guitar from the way it sounds with crook strings though. The one time I bought a guitar with crook strings (my Guild, which was second-hand and had strings out of Jurassic Park) I decided that it was going to sound OK. But once the shopkeeper realised that I was genuinely interested in it, he offered to restring it on the spot. $12 for a set of D'Addarios to seal a $1500 sale has to be worthwhile for him.

True, though having never tried a Terry Pack before I couldn't be confident enough that the strings would make enough difference. The other annoying thing is that their website is way out of date... The SJs are £1200 on the website but actually £1600 in the shop. I don't know how they justify a 33% increase even in these times.

Shadow · December 2022

Mellish said:

I'd have asked for the strings to be replaced, I think.

But i can understand why the strings were dead. Lord alone knows how many people had played those guitars, not all with clean hands!

I didn't think of that at the time. Mind you, to do a proper comparison I'd have wanted them to restring half a dozen guitars!

Shadow · December 2022

If it was a better known brand and I had £1200 kicking about I'd take the risk and try to see if an order through the website would be honoured at that price and be confident I could move it on easily if I wasn't happy.

thomasross20 · December 2022

TBF must cost a fortune but yeah I hear you! What did you think of the Terry Pack?

I tried a Martin OO18 £3k and didn't hold a candle to my £600 Larrivee. So I hear you...

Mellish · December 2022

@Shadow; restringinging the six guitars is something they should do anyway mate.

A guitar with fresh strings is going to sound better than a guitar with dead ones, so a better chance of selling.

Shadow · December 2022

thomasross20 said:

TBF must cost a fortune but yeah I hear you! What did you think of the Terry Pack?

I tried a Martin OO18 £3k and didn't hold a candle to my £600 Larrivee. So I hear you...

The Terry Packs looked good and played easily but thanks to the strings they were dead and muffled so no real clue how good they might sound!

Shadow · December 2022

Mellish said:

@Shadow; restringinging the six guitars is something they should do anyway mate.

A guitar with fresh strings is going to sound better than a guitar with dead ones, so a better chance of selling.

I totally agree. There may have been some effect due to recent damp conditions and it was quite cold in the room, but the strings on most of the guitars were very obviously heavily tarnished. I wouldn't have bought any of them without trying fresh strings.

I went to Mak's today and it couldn't have been more different. I tried a Bourgeois OM Vintage, a McNally OM21 and I think an Atkin Essential OM. All had fresh strings and sounded great. The Atkin was a little unresponsive relative to the others but I would have had a hard time choosing between the other two. Tonally probably the Bourgeois but the McNally was incredibly responsive, took very little effort to make it sing. At 3 grand I need to do a bit of saving though!

guitarjack66 · December 2022

Shadow said:

Mellish said:

@Shadow; restringinging the six guitars is something they should do anyway mate.

A guitar with fresh strings is going to sound better than a guitar with dead ones, so a better chance of selling.

I totally agree. There may have been some effect due to recent damp conditions and it was quite cold in the room, but the strings on most of the guitars were very obviously heavily tarnished. I wouldn't have bought any of them without trying fresh strings.

I went to Mak's today and it couldn't have been more different. I tried a Bourgeois OM Vintage, a McNally OM21 and I think an Atkin Essential OM. All had fresh strings and sounded great. The Atkin was a little unresponsive relative to the others but I would have had a hard time choosing between the other two. Tonally probably the Bourgeois but the McNally was incredibly responsive, took very little effort to make it sing. At 3 grand I need to do a bit of saving though!

Were you permitted to play these instruments even though you weren't looking to buy on the day? Or was it an appointment only visit?

Shadow · December 2022

guitarjack66 said:

Shadow said:

Mellish said:

@Shadow; restringinging the six guitars is something they should do anyway mate.

A guitar with fresh strings is going to sound better than a guitar with dead ones, so a better chance of selling.

I totally agree. There may have been some effect due to recent damp conditions and it was quite cold in the room, but the strings on most of the guitars were very obviously heavily tarnished. I wouldn't have bought any of them without trying fresh strings.

I went to Mak's today and it couldn't have been more different. I tried a Bourgeois OM Vintage, a McNally OM21 and I think an Atkin Essential OM. All had fresh strings and sounded great. The Atkin was a little unresponsive relative to the others but I would have had a hard time choosing between the other two. Tonally probably the Bourgeois but the McNally was incredibly responsive, took very little effort to make it sing. At 3 grand I need to do a bit of saving though!

Were you permitted to play these instruments even though you weren't looking to buy on the day? Or was it an appointment only visit?

No appointment, I just dropped in. I told him upfront that I wasn't looking to buy today but told him what I was looking for and he picked these out and left me to it. When I got up to go he said there was no rush to leave, I could stay as long as I liked. Can't recommend them enough.

Matthutch · December 2022

It's always tough to know how a guitar really sounds. Even with new strings on, your average guitar shop is likely to use a gauge most people are comfortable with (i.e. not too heavy) with and a low-ish action to make the thing super playable. I use 13-56s and like my action reasonably high. I have an Eastman, which I love, but after a set up a while ago I had to get the repair guy to crank it back up to where I was happy. If I'd tried it in a shop with that action, I'm not sure I'd have bought it based on how it sounded.

Tricky, innit!

Tannin · December 2022

Nearly all acoustic guitars ship from the factory with phosphor bronze 12s, the vast majority coated (Elixir and D'Addario are the most common brands, Martin guitars ship with Martin coated strings, Gibson guitars with Gibson strings). They like coated strings because they last longer in the shop.

The majority are set up a little on the high side. This is because it is very easy to lower the action to a customer's liking but (on an acoustic) difficult to raise it.

Some makes ship with the action set lower, Taylor is an example. My assumption is that Taylor do this because their quality control is so very good - every guitar leaves the factory set exactly on-spec and they don't have to leave as much margin for error. They also have the advantage of using an easily-adjustable modern bolt-on neck design which can be shimmed to a precise angle. Many other companies still use a non-adjustable dovetail which is difficult and time-consuming to set just so. For this reason, they need to start higher, leaving it to the buyer to adjust the saddle as needed.

I usually set mine up for roughly 2.0mm at the 12th fret (bass) and 1.5mm (treble). However I set my newest one up for 2.5 and 2.0mm because that seemed to suit its big, bold nature. It has the richest, deepest sound of any of them. Is that because I have the action that little bit higher? Or just because its the best guitar?

ian · December 2022

On a related note, when my wife and I were in the market for a digital piano, some years ago, we also tried a shop's acoustic pianos out of curiosity. All of them were in fairly serious need of being tuned. Our digital piano cost about £1000 and, funnily enough, is always in tune. How anyone can part with maybe £2000 to £5000 for an acoustic piano which is out of tune when they audition it I don't know!

Cryptid · December 2022

It's a tough one. I completely understand the use of coated strings for longevity on the shelf with the touch of random sweaty hands, but I can't simply imagine how a £3k guitar might sound without them.

When I was looking for a nice hog dread with a 1 11/16 nut, the Atkin Essential D was top of my list to try having owned a lovely D37 before. They get factory-strung with Elixirs which to my ears produce a right jangly mess of unflattering overtones. I tried two examples in two different shops and couldn't bring myself to buy one in the hope that it would sound good to me with non-coated strings. Neither shop were prepared to restring it with normal PB strings even when I offered to pay for a new set, plus a set of Elixirs to be put back on if I didn't take the guitar.

A good compromise would be treated strings - my Guild and Eastman both came with D'Addario EXP (now XT I think) and sound great with them.

roberty · December 2022

I worked in a guitar shop over a summer when I was a teenager and one of my jobs after vacuuming the place was changing any dirty strings on the guitars. This was a while ago though and I suppose the realities of guitar retail were different. Anyway it was great because I was shown how to change strings quickly and neatly, and I got to play every guitar in the shop. It kind of shocks me when guitars are badly set up with dirty strings in shops given the effort that we made all those years ago to make sure the guitars were all nice and clean, but that was pre-internet so all the buying was done in-store

roberty · December 2022

Oh my other job was making coffee. They basically told me I had to drink coffee to work there, because if I didn't drink it I wouldn't know if I was making it properly

idiotwindow · December 2022

Cryptid said:

I tried two examples in two different shops ... Neither shop were prepared to restring it with normal PB strings even when I offered to pay for a new set, plus a set of Elixirs to be put back on if I didn't take the guitar.

Where these shops part of a chain or independent? I'm no doubt being naive but I'm a little surprised that these shops could be so cavalier about not making a sale on a £3k guitar. Did they give a reason why they wouldn't restring the guitars?

danishbacon · December 2022

Shadow said:

guitarjack66 said:

Shadow said:

Mellish said:

@Shadow; restringinging the six guitars is something they should do anyway mate.

A guitar with fresh strings is going to sound better than a guitar with dead ones, so a better chance of selling.

I totally agree. There may have been some effect due to recent damp conditions and it was quite cold in the room, but the strings on most of the guitars were very obviously heavily tarnished. I wouldn't have bought any of them without trying fresh strings.

I went to Mak's today and it couldn't have been more different. I tried a Bourgeois OM Vintage, a McNally OM21 and I think an Atkin Essential OM. All had fresh strings and sounded great. The Atkin was a little unresponsive relative to the others but I would have had a hard time choosing between the other two. Tonally probably the Bourgeois but the McNally was incredibly responsive, took very little effort to make it sing. At 3 grand I need to do a bit of saving though!

Were you permitted to play these instruments even though you weren't looking to buy on the day? Or was it an appointment only visit?

No appointment, I just dropped in. I told him upfront that I wasn't looking to buy today but told him what I was looking for and he picked these out and left me to it. When I got up to go he said there was no rush to leave, I could stay as long as I liked. Can't recommend them enough.

Mak’s is hands down one of the best shops I’ve been to. Similar experience.

Cryptid · December 2022

@idiotwindow One chain, one independent. I didn't try and persuade them as I thought it was a reasonable request and lost interest when they weren't accommodating to the idea. The big chain shop did say that they have no problem selling Atkin guitars with Elixirs on and it would cost them time and money to change, I don't think they grasped the concept of me paying for two sets of strings.

Maybe they just thought I wasn't serious from the standard of my guitar playing! For some reason I always clam up in guitar shops and struggle to play anything well.

bertie · December 2022

what are these "shops" of which you speak ?

Cryptid · December 2022

bertie said:

what are these "shops" of which you speak ?

Generally they're buildings where goods are sold

Both in the Midlands; I don't really want to name and shame as I've bought guitars (not strung with Elixirs) from both places before and have been happy with the service.

Matthutch · December 2022

Another vote for Mak’s. Great service and cool stock!

Dave_Mc · December 2022

Cryptid said:

It's a tough one. I completely understand the use of coated strings for longevity on the shelf with the touch of random sweaty hands, but I can't simply imagine how a £3k guitar might sound without them.

When I was looking for a nice hog dread with a 1 11/16 nut, the Atkin Essential D was top of my list to try having owned a lovely D37 before. They get factory-strung with Elixirs which to my ears produce a right jangly mess of unflattering overtones. I tried two examples in two different shops and couldn't bring myself to buy one in the hope that it would sound good to me with non-coated strings. Neither shop were prepared to restring it with normal PB strings even when I offered to pay for a new set, plus a set of Elixirs to be put back on if I didn't take the guitar.

A good compromise would be treated strings - my Guild and Eastman both came with D'Addario EXP (now XT I think) and sound great with them.

That's crazy. And then people wonder why so many people just buy online...

"I don't know why people buy online, don't they know all the added value they get from buying in our bricks and mortar shop?"

"What does that entail?"

"Well, nothing really. We just keep saying it and keep haemorrhaging sales to the online box shifters for inexplicable reasons..."

(I think my Dowina came with those EXP strings... I agree, they're pretty nice and if they last longer too...

I'd also be too scared to ask for a restring like that... probably because I'd just assume they'd say no. Considering some of the shops I've been in (not all!) seemed to think that asking them to get a guitar down off the wall for you to try was akin to asking them for a kidney, I'm not sure my assumption was necessarily wrong...)

roberty · December 2022

Cryptid said:

For some reason I always clam up in guitar shops and struggle to play anything well.

Yeah same

Tannin · December 2022

For some reason I always clam up in guitar shops pretty much anywhere and struggle to play anything well.

Dave_Mc · December 2022

roberty said:

Cryptid said:

For some reason I always clam up in guitar shops and struggle to play anything well.

Yeah same

Yeah same here.

Even worse, I forget. I don't mean I forget how to play guitar, I mean I forget what songs I can play! It's like when someone asks me what bands I like... I struggle to think of more than about one band!

Tannin said:

For some reason I always clam up in guitar shops pretty much anywhere and struggle to play anything well.

Yeah I was going to post something similar!

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