Strummers.

Greatape · August 2022

Well, strumming and hybrid.

For some reason, over the last few months I've become a bit obsessed with the Laurel Canyon scene - CSNY, Joni, Gene Clark, etc. Among other things, I love that balanced, clear but not piercing acoustic guitar sound. And let's face it, more acoustic/less electric is quite likely....

I was hunting for a 'do it all' steel string (and was considering Eastman), but increasingly I'm edging towards more of a strummer. I have an old Washburn 1991 ltd dread, but it is pretty bright, even after messing with strings and picks.

I can't afford a D28 or a J45. What is worth looking at, in terms of brands, scale length, models or specs? I guess budget would absolutely max out around £1300-1500.

Merci folks

Coldfingers · August 2022

Can't really offer any useful advice, but here are a couple of interesting videos to get you thinking. I think I chose the "wrong" one each time!

Recording King vs D28,FF to around 21'20"

Alvarez vs D28 (ff to around 11min)

Out of interest, why wouldn't an Eastman make a strummer?

Greatape · August 2022

Coldfingers said:

Can't really offer any useful advice, but here are a couple of interesting videos to get you thinking. I think I chose the "wrong" one each time!

Recording King vs D28,FF to around 21'20"

And and Alvarez vs D28 (ff to around 11min)

Out of interest, why wouldn't an Eastman make a strummer?

It was a particular model I was looking at for a particular playing style. I've now revised my remit. I'm researching body styles, materials, make etc

stickyfiddle · August 2022

You've rightly identified that D18/D28/J45 is the classic option for this sort of thing. I'd look at Eastman and maybe Recording King. Ideally more a question of going to a shop and trying some stuff than worrying about specs on websites.

earwighoney · August 2022

Greatape said:

Well, strumming and hybrid.

For some reason, over the last few months I've become a bit obsessed with the Laurel Canyon scene - CSNY, Joni, Gene Clark, etc. Among other things, I love that balanced, clear but not piercing acoustic guitar sound. And let's face it, more acoustic/less electric is quite likely....

I was hunting for a 'do it all' steel string (and was considering Eastman), but increasingly I'm edging towards more of a strummer. I have an old Washburn 1991 ltd dread, but it is pretty bright, even after messing with strings and picks.

I can't afford a D28 or a J45. What is worth looking at, in terms of brands, scale length, models or specs? I guess budget would absolutely max out around £1300-1500.

Merci folks

Second hand Gibson J-35. There are a few on eBay, including one at a grand or so.

The Yamaha FG5 is Japanese made is just over a grand, very highly rated too.

Greatape · August 2022

Thanks all

TheMadMick · August 2022

Much under rated and thus relatively cheap are the L'Arrivee acoustics. an OM3 might fit your bill nicely 2nd hand. Expect to pay between £1k and £1.3k for a good example 2nd hand.

All the ones I tried had a very mellow sound and respond well to being strummed. I'm going to play mine tomorrow morning in a reflective church service because it sounds right for that sort of setting.

Winny_Pooh · August 2022

stickyfiddle said:

You've rightly identified that D18/D28/J45 is the classic option for this sort of thing. I'd look at Eastman and maybe Recording King. Ideally more a question of going to a shop and trying some stuff than worrying about specs on websites.

Yep, Eastman or Recording King if you want to spend less.

Greatape · September 2022

I'm guessing a rosewood back would potentially be a better choice than mahogany.

Greatape · September 2022

Coldfingers said:

Can't really offer any useful advice, but here are a couple of interesting videos to get you thinking. I think I chose the "wrong" one each time!

Recording King vs D28,FF to around 21'20"

And and Alvarez vs D28 (ff to around 11min)

Out of interest, why wouldn't an Eastman make a strummer?

Vid links not embedded....can only see pictures

DonnyMac · September 2022

Eastman E10D & E20D both fall into that price bracket. Mahogany or rosewood both with Adirondack tops.

TheBigDipper · September 2022

TheMadMick said:

Much under rated and thus relatively cheap are the L'Arrivee acoustics. an OM3 might fit your bill nicely 2nd hand. Expect to pay between £1k and £1.3k for a good example 2nd hand.

All the ones I tried had a very mellow sound and respond well to being strummed. I'm going to play mine tomorrow morning in a reflective church service because it sounds right for that sort of setting.

My L'Arrivee L-01 (a binding-free L-03) is a great strummer. Balanced with more of its own sound than, say, a Martin of similar size which is more neutral and might fit into a band mix better. But playing by yourself, the L-01 has a nicer sound (IMHO).

Tannin · September 2022

^ I had to look that up because of the weird spelling. (And in the meantime assumed it was probably just another no-name Chinese brand.)

guitarjack66 · September 2022

What makes a difference between a strumming(I assume this means using a plectrum to strum mainly chords?)guitar and a finger picking guitar? Surely strings make any acoustic capable of both? Unless you are putting something like 15 gauge strings on which would require a bandsaw rather than a pick?

Tannin · September 2022

I asked the same question, Jack. My assumption is that a strummer has more headroom and generally a less complex tone, where a fingerpicker is more responsive and has a more complex tone. (You don't want too much detail in the tone of a strummer, it just gets muddy and confusing when you are playing 6 strings at a time.) I often think of it as being a bit like speakers. A light speaker cone is more responsive and more detailed at low volume, but breaks up easily if overdriven, where a heavier cone can take some punishment without complaint.

Whether this is what the OP means by "strummers" I don't know, it's just my guess.

bertie · September 2022

guitarjack66 said:

What makes a difference between a strumming(I assume this means using a plectrum to strum mainly chords?)guitar and a finger picking guitar? Surely strings make any acoustic capable of both? Unless you are putting something like 15 gauge strings on which would require a bandsaw rather than a pick?

its about "which is better at it" not a black and white you can / cant do it. but its body size mainly as it "usually" affects tonal balance. (yes there are other factors but nowhere near as influential)

The qualities seen as desirable (ie reasonably spread across the spectrum) for picking tend to be more pronounced in smaller bodied guitars, where the more bass heavy tones that make strumming sound fuller/better/louder tend to be (much) better in larger bodied ie dreads, jumbos and super-Js

Strum a big jumbo and make sure no-ones standing too close in front of it

Greatape · September 2022

Tannin said:

I asked the same question, Jack. My assumption is that a strummer has more headroom and generally a less complex tone, where a fingerpicker is more responsive and has a more complex tone. (You don't want too much detail in the tone of a strummer, it just gets muddy and confusing when you are playing 6 strings at a time.) I often think of it as being a bit like speakers. A light speaker cone is more responsive and more detailed at low volume, but breaks up easily if overdriven, where a heavier cone can take some punishment without complaint.

Whether this is what the OP means by "strummers" I don't know, it's just my guess.

Kind of, yes. I don't think you want too much high end information. Whereas with a fingerpicker, you want it to respond readily to the lightest touch.

guitarjack66 · September 2022

Greatape said:

Tannin said:

I asked the same question, Jack. My assumption is that a strummer has more headroom and generally a less complex tone, where a fingerpicker is more responsive and has a more complex tone. (You don't want too much detail in the tone of a strummer, it just gets muddy and confusing when you are playing 6 strings at a time.) I often think of it as being a bit like speakers. A light speaker cone is more responsive and more detailed at low volume, but breaks up easily if overdriven, where a heavier cone can take some punishment without complaint.

Whether this is what the OP means by "strummers" I don't know, it's just my guess.

Kind of, yes. I don't think you want too much high end information. Whereas with a fingerpicker, you want it to respond readily to the lightest touch.

Sometimes I'd prefer it not to respond to a light touch,particularly if I've hit a string I shouldnt have!

Greatape · September 2022

guitarjack66 said:

Greatape said:

Tannin said:

I asked the same question, Jack. My assumption is that a strummer has more headroom and generally a less complex tone, where a fingerpicker is more responsive and has a more complex tone. (You don't want too much detail in the tone of a strummer, it just gets muddy and confusing when you are playing 6 strings at a time.) I often think of it as being a bit like speakers. A light speaker cone is more responsive and more detailed at low volume, but breaks up easily if overdriven, where a heavier cone can take some punishment without complaint.

Whether this is what the OP means by "strummers" I don't know, it's just my guess.

Kind of, yes. I don't think you want too much high end information. Whereas with a fingerpicker, you want it to respond readily to the lightest touch.

Sometimes I'd prefer it not to respond to a light touch,particularly if I've hit a string I shouldnt have!

In electric guitars, I like highly responsive instruments. I don't want to have to dig in to make it pop. I don't generally use a compressor, because I've spent many years developing a dynamic range that I don't want to limit.

But I think acoustic guitars...might be different. We'll see. I'm really no expert on them and just need to play a lot of them. Maybe I'll revise my expectations.

Cryptid · September 2022

If I was in the market for a strummer/hybrid with your budget, an Eastman E10D (mahogany) would be my choice. I played a lovely one at GG and far preferred it to the D18 they had!

I've personally never found a rosewood guitar to be ideal for a dedicated strummer - too many blooming overtones. They can sound lush and rich if you're strumming slowly and lightly... but with snappy, syncopated rhythms I always felt like I was fighting the instrument's natural envelope. I find rosewood trickier to record too - I've heard of a few D28 players that end up using a D18 in the studio.

Mahogany for me has a direct and dry character that never seems to get in the way when accompanying vocals. Maple is even better for fast and snappy rhythm work with its fast attack and decay.

Lightly built/braced and highly responsive guitars don't work for me with strumming, it feels like I'm fighting the guitar and pushing it past where it wants to go. I do strum fairly hard and percussively to convey the feel and groove of a tune in the pop & soul choir I accompany.

I've eventually settled on a maple SJ-200 Studio I picked up cheap from eBay. Once I'd installed a Baggs Anthem SL and took it in for a refret I'd spent a total of £1500. I'd avoided them for years due to the bling, but this one's fairly plain and has made a believer out of me. The ultimate strummer.

I have other guitars for fingerpicking and flatpicking but if I was only allowed one acoustic for all styles, with your budget, it'd absolutely be an Eastman E10D.

ICBM · September 2022

Greatape said:

I can't afford a D28 or a J45. What is worth looking at, in terms of brands, scale length, models or specs? I guess budget would absolutely max out around £1300-1500.

£1500 would probably get you a second hand D-18 or J45 even now. (A D-28 might be a bit optimistic.)

Mellish · September 2022

@Cryptid ; that D-18 - is it an ex demo? There's one floating around between GG branches, £100 off RRP

hollywoodrox · September 2022

I used to be a rabid fan of The Eagles & still enjoy playing their stuff
Takamine Dreadnaughts or Santa Fe models were played by them you can see them in hell freezes ove video . Also there are some beautiful Martin and Gibson lookalike dreadnaughts by Sigma which are supposed to be very good ( sigma used to be a Martin product but has been bought by another company for manufacture in Asia )

Cryptid · September 2022

Mellish said:

@Cryptid ; that D-18 - is it an ex demo? There's one floating around between GG branches, £100 off RRP

Not sure mate, it was a while ago. I just remember preferring the Eastman for strumming over the other hog dreads they had in stock at time which included Martin and Atkin models. Perhaps it was the Adi top?

Mellish · September 2022

@Cryptid ; possibly mate.

When you try guitars one will stand out, for whatever reason

guitarjack66 · September 2022

hollywoodrox said:

I used to be a rabid fan of The Eagles & still enjoy playing their stuff
Takamine Dreadnaughts or Santa Fe models were played by them you can see them in hell freezes ove video . Also there are some beautiful Martin and Gibson lookalike dreadnaughts by Sigma which are supposed to be very good ( sigma used to be a Martin product but has been bought by another company for manufacture in Asia )

My regular guitar,and best of my small collection of three,is a Sigma Grand Auditorium sized guitar. I think it is superb value for money at around £300 ish. While Sigma have not been under Martin's umbrella for a long time their design is very similar and they sound excellent.

Teyeplayer · September 2022

Secondhand American made Guilds are worth a look. Recently picked up a mahogany d20 for a really good price, plays as well as the Martin I used to have, outplays the Eastman, is better than my Maton, was the second cheapest of all of the above.

Teyeplayer · September 2022

Teyeplayer said:

Secondhand American made Guilds are worth a look. Recently picked up a mahogany d20 for a really good price, plays as well as the Martin I used to have, outplays the Eastman, is better than my Maton, was the second cheapest of all of the above.

And I should add I do a lot of west coast inspired blurring between finger style and strumming -it nails it.

Tannin · September 2022

I agree with @Teyeplayer American Guilds are awesomely good. They are also incredibly expensive. New, they have almost priced themselves out of the market, they now cost quite a lot more than the (madly overpriced) mainstream Gibsons and Martins. On the other hand, I reckon they are clearly better instruments.

Used ones still cost a bit, but they can be affordable if you find the right one. My US-made Guild is not the equal of several of my other guitars, but it was easily the cheapest of them and it is by no means disgraced: I play it nearly every day and reckon it's a damn good instrument. I'd buy another one for sure.

Vinny · September 2022

Another Guild fan here. D40 (or D40 bluegrass jubilee) is their equivalent to Martin D18, which will give you the Laurel Canyon sound. D50 or D55 are the rosewood (Martin D28) options.
Chinese made Guild D140 or D150 great value alternatives.

guitarjack66 · September 2022

Tannin said:

I agree with @Teyeplayer American Guilds are awesomely good. They are also incredibly expensive. New, they have almost priced themselves out of the market, they now cost quite a lot more than the (madly overpriced) mainstream Gibsons and Martins. On the other hand, I reckon they are clearly better instruments.

Used ones still cost a bit, but they can be affordable if you find the right one. My US-made Guild is not the equal of several of my other guitars, but it was easily the cheapest of them and it is by no means disgraced: I play it nearly every day and reckon it's a damn good instrument. I'd buy another one for sure.

How are Guild as a brand from an ethical standpoint my friend? I know both you,and I care about these things as well as many others nowadays.

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