Acoustic advice/education - good all rounder.

Haych · May 2021

I must admit that I know quite a lot less about acoustic guitars than I do electric.

For some time now I've been toying with the idea of parting with most of my electrics and buying a half decent acoustic - something I can just pick up, play and enjoy without needing to thing about amps, tone, effects or anything else.

For that reason, I'd be wanting something that's a good all rounder; something that can handle some heavy strumming but something that still responds well to fingerstyle playing.

This is where my lack of knowledge trips me up. All I know is my last acoustic was a dreadnought which did the strumming and flat picking stuff very well but wasn't great at responding to finer inputs of finger picking.

Is there a shape/type/manufacturer even of acoustic steel string guitar that lends itself to pretty much everything?

Ta much in advancement.

Gandalph · May 2021

Martin 000-18 would make for a very respectable all rounder.

ICBM · May 2021

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

Gibson J-45 if you do...

Neither of them do *really* heavy strumming well, but both will handle a bit more thumping than they're normally associated with. Any more than that and you're probably getting into Dreadnoughts and Jumbos - although in my opinion they're similarly not as bad for fingerpicking as often thought, especially anything with lighter/scalloped bracing, eg a Martin HD-28.

Haych · May 2021

ICBM said:

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

When you say a wider neck, how wide are we talking exactly?

ICBM · May 2021

Haych said:

When you say a wider neck, how wide are we talking exactly?

1-3/4" is standard for them. I think some of the older models (90s, rather than 40s!) might have been narrower. I had a mid-90s OM-21 which was that wide though... which is why I don't own it now.

000s have narrower necks usually, but a shorter scale and don't seem quite as suitable for strumming, to me.

Andy79 · May 2021

ICBM said:

Martin OM, if you don't mind a wider neck.

Gibson J-45 if you do...

Neither of them do *really* heavy strumming well, but both will handle a bit more thumping than they're normally associated with. Any more than that and you're probably getting into Dreadnoughts and Jumbos - although in my opinion they're similarly not as bad for fingerpicking as often thought, especially anything with lighter/scalloped bracing, eg a Martin HD-28.

J45 not for heavy strumming? can’t think of anything better really
And they fingerstyle exceptionally well especially if you’re a bit heavy handed on medium strings
A great all rounder

tomjax · May 2021

I think the Gibson J-45 is one of the best strumming guitars out there... maybe only bettered by a J-200.

Ricjo · May 2021

The Martin 000-18 is 1 3/4” neck. And it’s a fabulous all rounder. I have one myself.

ToneControl · May 2021

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea

What do you want to spend?

Tannin · May 2021

For all-round ability, you'd be wise to avoid the guitars which are famous for having a particular sound (for example Martin 000-18, D-18, D-28, HD-28; Gibson J45, J-200; practically any Taylor; various others) and go with something famous for just being a great guitar. Made-in-Japan Yamahas come immediately to mind, as do any of the better made-in-Europe brands, Lakewood in particular. In this part of the world I'd add most Matons but not most Cole Clarks (probably not where you are though, they are very expensive in the UK). The great majority of 3rd-world manufactured guitars (many of them wearing fake European or American brand names) are aimed at the cheap mass market and you are probably looking to go a bit better than that, but play the ones you like the look of and make your own judgement: I'm told that some are excellent by any standards and have no reason to doubt that.

And for a mix of strumming and fingerstyle, a dred or a jumbo will do at a pinch, but an OM / 808 / grand auditorium / whatever else they are calling that shape this week rules supreme.

TheBigDipper · May 2021

I own an L-shape L'Arrivee (an L-01) which is a good all-rounder. Not as big as a dread or jumbo, doesn't start to "flub" when strummed hard yet responds nicely to dynamic finger picking. Also extremely well-made, nice neck and balanced tone.

TheMadMick · May 2021

Steve Page has a PRS T40E on here at £400.00 and he might well take an offer.

I have the cutaway version (A40E) and it needed some work to get the action as low as I like (it's my age you know) - the bridge lowered and a fret dress because the frets were high on the body. However, it has the most beautiful neck I've ever come across. I love it but wish the strings were a litle further apart - I've big fingers.

The tone took a while to develop and it seems to suit D'Addario PB - but I like a very mellow tone and play strings until they turn their toes up.

Also, the risk would be lower than the more expensive Martins and the like. I both strum and pick and mine responds well. It also sounds OK plugged in.

Haych · May 2021

ToneControl said:

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea

What do you want to spend?

Not sure yet, it will depend on a lot of things and it won't be immediate whatever happens, probably going to be an autumn gift to myself.

Will also depend on whether I buy new or used. New will give me more options, assuming one can still go into a guitar shop in the autumn and try out a load of different guitars. Used might give me a better price but less choice.

tone1 · May 2021

I’m really interested in this thread as I’m in the same boat... I fancy an all rounder like a J45/ Atkin 43 or Eastman equivalent. So many options and choices too... but i fancy a Sunburst acoustic for a change.

stickyfiddle · May 2021

I love my HD28. I play far more fingerpicking than anything other styles. I'm also looking at getting something smaller and mahogany-er to complement it, but the dread works very well as an all-rounder by itself.

I certainly feel like it's a better compromise being a great strummer and good fingerpicker, compared with something like a 00 which is wonderful for fingerpicking but farts out when hit too hard

ToneControl · May 2021

Haych said:

ToneControl said:

worth mentioning that Dreadnoughts and Jumbos are often less popular with people who are smaller than average

Personally, I think the Jumbo size is the best all-rounder
1.75 inch wide nut is a good idea

What do you want to spend?

Not sure yet, it will depend on a lot of things and it won't be immediate whatever happens, probably going to be an autumn gift to myself.

Will also depend on whether I buy new or used. New will give me more options, assuming one can still go into a guitar shop in the autumn and try out a load of different guitars. Used might give me a better price but less choice.

OK. I would say buy used. I've done it by trying a few, then basically buying on ebay and seeing if I liked them, then selling on if I didn't. Probably easier to visit Frailer's - who AFAIK have the largest used selection. There are some shops with a few upmarket used ones in the south East

I'd say learn the price ranges, and decide what level you are going for

I concentrate on the upmarket "boutique" ones now: Lowden, Avalon, Fylde, Bourgeois, Goodall, etc
These are the equivalent of custom shop fenders, but I strongly believe that the extra cash spent makes a much bigger difference with acoustics. These brands typically have between 2 and 30 people working on making the guitars, some really are just 2 or 3 people. This is the old-fashioned way to build classicals and acoustics, a master luthier and their assistants.
Acoustics can be improved considerably by expert attention to the woods during the build, since wood differs a lot, and it's just the wood making the sounds here, not pickups.

These start at £3k new, £3k-£5k being the range that are sold most often
Buying used, £2k-£3k is the normal range, but you will find the occasional one for £1500

These overlap a lot in price with the big makers: Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Larrivee
I've found that you normally need to spend a lot more with these brands to get the quality of sound of the "boutique" makes.

I'm no expert in the lower-price brackets, but generally it will either be: made in the Far East, or more mass-production style manufacture in North America or Europe.

I've played good instruments from Furch, Stonebridge (same thing I think), Blueridge.
Hard to know how to judge these until you've tried the boutique level ones to provide a comparison. I was amazed when I first tried the boutique ones.

ICBM · May 2021

Andy79 said:

J45 not for heavy strumming? can’t think of anything better really

A D-28, or any other Martin Dreadnought. Or a Hummingbird or a Dove, or a J-200...

The J-45 is middier-sounding and less boomy than any of them, which to me makes it a better all-rounder but less good as an outright strummer.

Ricjo said:

The Martin 000-18 is 1 3/4” neck.

They are now, but older ones are 1-11/16".

Edit: checked the dates, 1939-2014 apart from specials like the Woody Guthrie edition.

crunchman · May 2021

A dreadnought with the right bracing is a good allrounder.

You want something with the pre war style bracing. Martin call it "forward shifted". They have changed back to that on their standard models in recent years, but the previous D28s were not very responsive at all. They need thick strings and to be strummed hard if you want them to sound anything close to good. A lot of budget dreadnoughts are/were copies of that and had the same characteristics.

As well as body size and shape, it's also worth thinking about what wood combinations you like. The most common would be a spruce top, with either mahogany or rosewood back or sides. The mahogany and rosewood do sound different. If you aren't sure then it's definitely worth checking out a D18 and D28 comparison. If you ignore the cosmetic trim, the only important difference between them is the wood used for the back and sides.

The other difference in wood that you will find is rosewood vs ebony for the fingerboard and bridge. Martin normally use ebony, while something like a Gibson J45 uses rosewood. There is definitely a feel difference, but I think there is a slight tonal difference as well. Ebony seems to add a little high end sparkle to my ears.

Apart from wood combinations, scale length is the other variable. Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9". The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer. I think most Gibsons are 24.75" like their electrics.

Wood and body shape/size on their own aren't everything. The bracing design has a huge effect on the sound. I used to have a Brook dreadnought with the same woods as my Martin dreadnought has, but it didn't sound the same. That was a lovely guitar, but I didn't get on well with the shallow neck and flat fingerboard radius that Brook default to. I do wonder about custom ordering one from them though with a deeper neck.

Apart from the big two US makers, there are other options available. Taylor shift a lot of guitars. Furch are very high quality, and won't set you back as much as the American guitars. For a UK build option, Alister Atkin and Brook are very good. If you want to spend a bit less, Faith guitars have a very good reputation. That's not an exhaustive list. There are other very good makers.

bugileman · May 2021

Yamaha LL-11 in my opinion. Very versatile guitar that not only is a great strummer, but a great finger picker too. Bert Jansch was a big fan.

Haych · May 2021

bugileman said:

Yamaha LL-11 in my opinion. Very versatile guitar that not only is a great strummer, but a great finger picker too. Bert Jansch was a big fan.

That's interesting, thanks. Obviously a discontinued model, though and not that common on the used market. Will keep an eye out though.

Haych · May 2021

Follow-on question:

Cutaway or non-cutaway, is there that much difference in tone/volume if the guitar has a cutaway?

I can't see me needing one to be honest.

ToneControl · May 2021

Haych said:

Follow-on question:

Cutaway or non-cutaway, is there that much difference in tone/volume if the guitar has a cutaway?

I can't see me needing one to be honest.

Not in a well-made one.
Might also be fine for cheaper ones, I don't know

Cutaways cost extra to make though, so it will make a difference to what you get for the cash, especially if buying new

Haych · May 2021

ToneControl said:

Cutaways cost extra to make though, so it will make a difference to what you get for the cash, especially if buying new

Ooooh, yeah, good point, hadn't thought about that. Thanks dude.

stickyfiddle · May 2021

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically.

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

Haych · May 2021

stickyfiddle said:

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically.

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

Like I say, I doubt I'd ever need one. That said, some manufacturers don't seem to give you much of a choice. Many Taylors, for instance, seem to come with them whether you like them or not, or at least the cutaway flavour is offered as standard with a non cutaway version offered on an extended lead time.

ToneControl · May 2021

stickyfiddle said:

Cutaway acoustics are for rock bands who still try and do the twiddly bits when they play songs acoustically.

I’ve had 1 cutaway followed by 3 non-catuways. I don’t miss it at all

I don't need them normally, but helpful on a 12-fret guitar when using DADGAD

DavidR · May 2021

All good advice as above. You expressed interest in Yamaha LL-11.

Could I therefore also suggest the Yamaha FG5 (dreadnought - about £1,200 - made in China and finished in Japan) and the very worthy Yamaha FG830 (dreadnought - about £380 - China). I have both instruments. They sound good and rate 'excellent' on the value scale. You might find the FG5 a bit difficult to find new now but have a word with Yamaha London and they will help you find one or order one for you from Hamamatsu. 'Far East' shouldn't be dismissed in comparison with the volume US makers - they're all mass-produced. And actually, the Far East has been making stringed instruments for a lot longer than the US if you think about it!

All the advice on more expensive instruments is good and I have a (US made) Martin OM28 as my 'posh' instrument. OM sized instruments are smaller than dreadnoughts and will (generally) have a little less lower end 'boom'. If you can get a 'Re-imagined' version of the instrument (now the 'Standard' OM28 and about £2,900) they are very nice. The current iteration of the OM28 is the 'Modern Deluxe' and has a few updates but retails for much more (about £3,900). You really should try all the other instruments suggested. They are all quite different in character and tone and you will find a favourite.

Of my 3 acoustics, the FG5 is my favourite but that doesn't mean it would be yours. The best valued of the 3 is the FG830 - I have no idea how Yamaha can market such a good instrument for the price.

Don't assume US instruments are best as might be implied by the overall content of this thread. Give any instrument you buy to a luthier to set (usually lower) the action for you as you like it. The setup done by shops is usually just a quick checkover rather than a full assessment of action at the nut, bridge saddle and neck relief. Changing the nuts, bridge saddles (perhaps to bone), bridge pins (e.g to bone, ebony, brass) and strings on the cheaper end instruments can markedly improve them so suggest doing that to the luthier whilst they're at it. (Actually, changing/fiddling with bridge saddles and bridge pins is easy enough to do yourself, but I have never had the confidence to do too much to nuts - less margin of error and more difficult to swap).

Have fun looking.

Tannin · May 2021

DavidR said:

Don't assume US instruments are best as might be implied by the overall content of this thread.

Absolutely! There are excellent instruments made in many different places. I see that there is a Takamine EF340S for sale in the classifieds here at present for a very reasonable price. Made in Japan Takamines are lovely guitars. Earlier I said that an auditorium / 808 / 000 / concert body would be more of an all-rounder than a dreadnought. Well, sure, but a Japanese-made mahogany Takamine dred ... yep. I'd have one.

(Disclaimer: I haven't played this particular Takamine model and don't know the seller. Make your own judgements.)

Haych · May 2021

All good stuff, thanks everyone.

Like I’ve said, it’ll probably be the autumn before I’m in a position to commit, depending on budget etc.

I don’t have too much experience with acoustic guitars. My first proper acoustic was a Martin D1 not long after the first came out. Lovely guitar for what was a budget instrument and sounded great. It didn’t really like finger style very much though, it needed the energy of a pick to get the best out of it.

I also had a cheap Takamine for a while, which I gave to my niece. Not bad for the price point, but again a dreadnought shape and playing with a pick was fine but fingers not so much.

I’ve tried a couple of Taylors in a shop once, and a Gibson Dove. The Taylors were all excellent but not particularly sure they all sounded that good for the money they demanded. The Gibson Dove was really quite nice but the factory setup was appalling - it was barely playable.

In the meantime I’m doing my usual and researching various instruments via YouTube.

Yeah, I know I won’t get a personal view properly of what they’re like to play or what they sound like in person but it’s a good place to start.

The Japanese guitars seem to sound quite a lot brighter, I’ve noticed. Martin generally sound very warm by comparison. Taylor have their own thing going on - I watched a side by side of a Taylor 314 (I think) and the Yamaha LL16, for me the Yammy won hands down.

I have to say, though, so far my pick of the bunch just based on YouTube is the J45.

When the time is right I’ll get out and play a few if I can - we’ll probably be in lockdown again by then knowing my luck.

Keep the suggestions and general advice coming though. It’s really interesting stuff. If I can end up with a nice guitar I can keep on the living room wall and pick up and play at a second’s notice then I’ll be pleased. If it’s a rewarding instrument to play then I’ll be very happy indeed.

Tannin · May 2021

If you get a J-45 to hang on the wall, be sure to get something to cover it with, such as a a tarpaulin.

Lewy · May 2021

crunchman said:

Most Martins are 25.4", but the OM is 24.9". The OM doesn't have quite so much high end snap and sounds a bit warmer.

OMs are 25.4" too. 0, 00 and 000 shapes are 24.9

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Acoustic advice/education - good all rounder.

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