K&K won't fit - is iBeam any good?

TimmyO · March 2020

Went to pick up my D28 Authentic '41 only to be told that there were 2 problems trying to fit a K&K Pure Mini:

1. due to the shifted bracing (it's shifted the 'other' way than is more normal) he couldn't get the plastic template thing in place
2. The bridge plate itself is very narrow and the elements would overhang it

By this point he'd already fitted the endpin so I've left it with him while he investigates other options - he said he's going to look in to the Baggs iBeam - not one I've heard of - apparently it too attached to the inside somewhere (not an under saddle thing)

Anyone familiar with these?

Any other options to consider?

I don't want anything that goes under the saddle, and was very set on the K&K :-(

CMW335 · March 2020

I had an Ibeam in my 43 J45 and it sounded great. As it happens I bought another to fit in my 69 J200 but as that’s up for sale I don’t need it now. Happy to sell if you decide it’s what you need pm me

ICBM · March 2020

Yes, the iBeam is a different internal contact type transducer - it's slightly narrower than the K&K sensors so it may fit.

It also comes in either passive or active versions - as always, I would go for the passive and get an outboard preamp.

If you don't want a UST, the other options are basically something like this, or to fit the K&K sensors in "non approved" positions, which will work but may have very unpredictable results, or a magnetic soundhole pickup... which I assume you don't want either.

TimmyO · March 2020

Cheers.

I think if I got a non-standard fitting of the K&K done even if it sounded half decent I’d forever be wondering if it was right/should be better and drive myself nuts (and I’ve read some comments that it can sound pretty pants too that way sometimes)

And you’re right - I’m not keen on hanging anything heavy off the soundboard either - this is primarily an out and out acoustic for me, the pickup is a nice-to-have (but if it is to be had, I want it good)

The reviews I’ve found of the iBeam seem to be pretty old and fall into 2 camps - a couple of commercial reviews that say it is good, and lots of forum posts saying it is less nice than the K&K. Hard to tell. (Not saying i don’t believe you @CMW335 ! :-) )

Jalapeno · March 2020

How about one of those clip on condenser mics if it is primarily an acoustic ?

Or soundhole mics like Fishman Blend ?

CMW335 · March 2020

TimmyO said:

Cheers.

I think if I got a non-standard fitting of the K&K done even if it sounded half decent I’d forever be wondering if it was right/should be better and drive myself nuts (and I’ve read some comments that it can sound pretty pants too that way sometimes)

And you’re right - I’m not keen on hanging anything heavy off the soundboard either - this is primarily an out and out acoustic for me, the pickup is a nice-to-have (but if it is to be had, I want it good)

The reviews I’ve found of the iBeam seem to be pretty old and fall into 2 camps - a couple of commercial reviews that say it is good, and lots of forum posts saying it is less nice than the K&K. Hard to tell. (Not saying i don’t believe you @CMW335 ! :-) )

Don’t recall having heard the K&K to compare but have a clip of the ibeam in my 43 J45 going into an aer can send to you. Was recorded on iPhone and probably less impressive but more honest than demos you are likely to find on YouTube etc

Teyeplayer · March 2020

I use the ibeam (active), it’s ok and I intend to try a k&k in my next acoustic purchase. There’s definitely still a degree of quack to it imo but this may be because it is the active version. Schertler do some excellent sounding transducer types; I’ve used them on Auden guitars, and providing the soundman listens rather than sticking to a preset for acoustics (a problem I often had with the l r baggs lyric) they sound excellent.

ICBM · March 2020

TimmyO said:

The reviews I’ve found of the iBeam seem to be pretty old and fall into 2 camps - a couple of commercial reviews that say it is good, and lots of forum posts saying it is less nice than the K&K. Hard to tell.

I think both are right.

I don’t think it sounds as good as the K&K - but it’s not bad, and if it’s the only practical option then I would probably go with it. If your intention is just to have a basic amplified sound that you can use with the least fuss and alteration to the guitar then it’s fine.

If you’re after the best possible reproduction of a mic’ed acoustic sound I honestly think you will get better results with a piezo UST and a good outboard modelling preamp like the Fishman Aura though - or the Zoom AC-3... don’t laugh, have a listen to the clip in p90fool’s thread.

Teyeplayer said:

...and providing the soundman listens rather than sticking to a preset for acoustics (a problem I often had with the l r baggs lyric) they sound excellent.

I had this problem with the Aura too - when dialed in just right it sounded fantastic, but if not then it sounded dreadful, which made it unsuitable for gigs where I could never tell what it was going to sound like out front.

Lewy · March 2020

Teyeplayer said:

Providing the soundman listens rather than sticking to a preset for acoustics (a problem I often had with the l r baggs lyric) they sound excellent.

I had the exact same problem with the lyric!

Lewy · March 2020

I personally wouldn’t fancy having a UST fitted to an Authentic series Martin with its glued-in long saddle etc, although I agree a UST with an Aura can sound as good as it gets for plugged into sounds (although several things can sound as good as it gets because as good as it gets isn’t all that good!

)

What about those internal mics that are kind of on a stalk that extends into the body from the end pin? I can’t remember the make I’m afraid.

ICBM · March 2020

Lewy said:

I had the exact same problem with the lyric!

I think it's because the beauty of these more sophisticated systems is that they sound very natural going into a flat-response system - all the clever stuff to make it sound right has already been done. But if you then stick the same sort of EQ on that you normally would to make the inherently unnatural sound of a standard electro-acoustic sound right, the two things just fight each other.

Either that or soundmen are so used to the shitty sound of a UST going direct that they think that's what an acoustic guitar actually sounds like, and try to make it like that on purpose!

Lewy · March 2020

ICBM said:

Lewy said:

I had the exact same problem with the lyric!

I think it's because the beauty of these more sophisticated systems is that they sound very natural going into a flat-response system - all the clever stuff to make it sound right has already been done. But if you then stick the same sort of EQ on that you normally would to make the inherently unnatural sound of a standard electro-acoustic sound right, the two things just fight each other.

Either that or soundmen are so used to the shitty sound of a UST going direct that they think that's what an acoustic guitar actually sounds like, and try to make it like that on purpose!

I think it’s both of those things together!

shufflebeat · March 2020

Consider the Schatten HFN.

https://m.thomann.de/gb/schatten_design_hfn_player_passiv_447015.htm?o=0&search=1585049813

I had an iBeam active for a while. It was OK but eventually got retired (never gigged) and the preamp got repurposed for another pickup.

I have a K&K in a cheap Crafter dread which works great with the Tonedexter. I played another similar Crafter with the HFN fitted, it was very impressive.

Aaron Short has done some video reviews on YouTube which you may find interesting. I'm normally suspicious of YT reviews but AS seems to be pretty level-headed and a reasonable judge with plenty of reliable benchmarks in his experience.

TimmyO · March 2020

I’m guessing the guitar is now stuck at the shop for the foreseeable :-/

Funkfingers · March 2020

Jalapeno said:

How about ... the ... Fishman Blend?

No, thank you. It sucks.

The magnetic section is fine ... if you happen to like twenty year old sound hole mag pickup designs. The gooseneck condenser mic sounds terrible, no matter which way you aim it. Additionally, the Blend concept is that the mic is supposed to enhance the mag. There is no provision to do things the other way about, such that the fuller mag sound reinforces the sterile/brittle condenser mic signal.

I am aware that the Maton Tommy Emmanuel signature model employs a mag/mic blending system. Whatever technology it involves, the results are considerably better than the ol' Fishman.

For full disclosure, I use L.R. Baggs Lyric. I arrived at this decision after disliking the UST half of the Anthem SL.

TimmyO said:

Any other options to consider?

L.R. Baggs M80.

ICBM · March 2020

TimmyO said:

I’m guessing the guitar is now stuck at the shop for the foreseeable :-/

Unlucky

.

Funkfingers said:

Jalapeno said:

How about ... the ... Fishman Blend?

No, thank you. It sucks.

The magnetic section is fine ... if you happen to like twenty year old sound hole mag pickup designs. The gooseneck condenser mic sounds terrible, no matter which way you aim it. Additionally, the Blend concept is that the mic is supposed to enhance the mag. There is no provision to do things the other way about, such that the fuller mag sound reinforces the sterile/brittle condenser mic signal.

Agreed. I detested it too, for all the same reasons.

What I did find worked very well was a Fishman Matrix (plain UST version) with a Rare Earth added to it - run from the same battery and simply connected to the volume control. That gave the EQ and phase switching only on the UST, and the volume control working on both - you could adjust the blend quite effectively using the EQ (all sliders up or down at once), or turn the UST off completely by carefully setting the phase switch in the middle.

I've just been doing some experimenting with the Rare Earth, a Fishman Blackstack (essentially a Sunrise copy) and an ancient Bartolini 3AV that I don't even have a proper mount for... just fitted in a broken Strat surface-mount ring and gaffered to the guitar! The Bartolini actually holds up amazingly well, it's certainly a bit more middy and 'electric guitar' sounding than either of the Fishmans, but in a good and quite authentic rough, 'Americana' way. The Rare Earth is actually the most 'modern' - the active EQ gives it a more scooped and sparkly sound, and the Blackstack is nice but in my opinion doesn't justify the very high price, which is more than many active systems...

Given that this is for my £20 charity shop Vintage I think I'll just make a mount for the Bartolini

.

camf · March 2020

Hope you’re not getting gaffer tape marks on that Blackstack!

ICBM · March 2020

camf said:

Hope you’re not getting gaffer tape marks on that Blackstack!

lol

I did have them both in the guitar at the same time at one point to compare them though - but it's not quite a true A/B since they obviously have to be in different places.

I was thinking of asking you if you wanted to sell it, until I saw the price

.

I also found out that Kurt Cobain had a Bartolini in his MTV Unplugged Martin D18E - presumably he didn't like the stock pickups...

camf · March 2020

I need to hang on to it as the M80 is back with LR Bagg being repaired.

If the M80 comes back okay, I might have an M1a going spare though.

mbwhite · March 2020

I've recently bought a 2016 Martin D18. I was planning to stick a K&K in it, even if I have an M1a in a drawer (wasn't really liking it with my ex D28).
But the guitar came with a Fishman UST. The original D18 owner didn't remember which model though. I have a couple of questions.
If I remove it a new saddle should be put on the bridge? I guess its thickness is now part of the whole setup of the guitar.
I hate USTs, do hate them so much that I don't want even to try it. But now I have an HX Stomp, it's not an Aura or Tonedexter, but I could apply a good IR to it. Does it worth trying?
Or would you buy an Aura to use it or a K&K to plug into my Headway EDB2?

Thanks

Jalapeno · March 2020

Funkfingers said:

Jalapeno said:

How about ... the ... Fishman Blend?

No, thank you. It sucks.

Ok, that's me told, I'll shut up about pickups

The Boss AD range of acoustic pedal/pre-amps do improve any piezo under-saddle sounds a lot.

ICBM · March 2020

camf said:

I need to hang on to it as the M80 is back with LR Bagg being repaired. If the M80 comes back okay, I might have an M1a going spare though.

The M1A is too microphonic for what I want it for... I know that's the whole point, and makes it more 'acoustic' sounding! But no good with overdrive

.

mbwhite said:

But the guitar came with a Fishman UST. The original D18 owner didn't remember which model though. I have a couple of questions.
If I remove it a new saddle should be put on the bridge? I guess its thickness is now part of the whole setup of the guitar.
I hate USTs, do hate them so much that I don't want even to try it. But now I have an HX Stomp, it's not an Aura or Tonedexter, but I could apply a good IR to it. Does it worth trying?
Or would you buy an Aura to use it or a K&K to plug into my Headway EDB2?

Try it. Or if you're unsure, listen to this...

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/175640/ditching-your-onboard-preamp

It's not an HX Stomp - but neither is it an Aura. It's still designed to apply modelling to a UST signal though, so that what you hear isn't the pickup itself.

I've got a Fishman UST in my Gibson, because due to a bit of annoying woodwork on the bridgeplate, I can't fit a K&K. I did have an Aura Spectrum for it, which was great when set up just right, but also *very* sensitive to precise adjustments, and could sound terrible as well as great! I currently have a Boss AD-8, which doesn't sound as great but also not as terrible... I haven't tried the Zoom AC-3 yet, but I should.

If you do remove the UST you will need to shim or replace the bridge, unless the action is currently around 1mm too high.

camf · March 2020

Jalapeno said:

Funkfingers said:

Jalapeno said:

How about ... the ... Fishman Blend?

No, thank you. It sucks.

Ok, that's me told, I'll shut up about pickups

The Boss AD range of acoustic pedal/pre-amps do improve any piezo under-saddle sounds a lot.

Yeah, acoustic pickups seem to one of one of the most subjective areas of the guitar world. I watched a Hiss Golden Messenger solo gig a few months ago and he was using a Dimarzio Angel and it sounded superb. It might not be anyone else’s idea of amplified acoustic but it gave me assurance that a decent soundhole pickup is a perfectly serviceable basis of an acoustic singer/songwriter show. Perhaps if I was just playing solo acoustic I might feel differently.

shufflebeat · March 2020

I hate USTs, do hate them so much that I don't want even to try it. But now I have an HX Stomp, it's not an Aura or Tonedexter, but I could apply a good IR to it. Does it worth trying?

I've been experimenting with IRs recently. If you are half technically minded you may like to check out what jonfields45 has been doing over at AGF. Make your own IR from your guitar/mic combo.

I'm a TD user but have been playing with the possibilities for some guys I play with, fiddle, bass. I make IRs for them, then load them into a Mooer Radar (cheapest IR loader I've found). Trials on guitar look amazing.

CMW335 · April 2020

I need a pickup for a Vintage Gibson J-200 sounds like a K&K is the way to go. Anyone foresee any issues fitting one to a J-200? Apart from lockdown that is

ICBM · April 2020

CMW335 said:

I need a pickup for a Vintage Gibson J-200 sounds like a K&K is the way to go. Anyone foresee any issues fitting one to a J-200?

Loss of value. I would not put any permanently installed pickup in that guitar, not even a K&K.

Soundhole pickup with a trailing lead or stick a mic in front of it.

CMW335 · April 2020

ICBM said:

CMW335 said:

I need a pickup for a Vintage Gibson J-200 sounds like a K&K is the way to go. Anyone foresee any issues fitting one to a J-200?

Loss of value. I would not put any permanently installed pickup in that guitar, not even a K&K.

Soundhole pickup with a trailing lead or stick a mic in front of it.

I agree however the guitar has previously had a pickup installed so not a big issue on this one

shufflebeat · April 2020

I've not used it but the Schatten HFN is often discussed as comparable and isn't a permanent installation.

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