Is this a wolf note?

Warblington · October 2018

I have just had a guitar delivered from a well know dealer.It's an Eastman E20 OM in sunburst.Before dispatch I was told it didn't need a set up (the shop offers one free).I have to say ,I was quite underwhelmed with the projection and volume of the guitar.When I fretted the top E string the first three frets were were clear but not loud (playing with my nails not a pick).When I got to the 4th fret the note sang out loudly and sustained .It sounded as though there was another string vibrating, ie not just one clear note.Is that an overtone ,and is that scenario describing a wolf note? How common is this.I have a little martin LX1E guitar which is perfectly balanced across all the strings and frets.Were I to play a passage that involved chromatic movement up from the first fret ,this note would have been obviously louder and of a different tone.What am I describing? Anyway, I have sent the guitar back as it wasn't what I was expecting.Should this have been picked up by the shop? Is it a common problem? Lesson learned, never buy online, only buy what you've tried out.I'm in the process of moving form classical guitar playing and its not something I've come across in the past.Thanks in advance for any replies.

steveh · October 2018

A wolf note is one that has noticeably more / less sustain and / or volume than it's immediate neighbours.
Due to interference (augumentation or cancellation) between the note and the body / top resonance etc.
They are distressingly common on nylon guitars but do occur on others. Surprised you've not encountered it before if you've played nylon. Paradoxically, they're commoner with very lightly built and responsive guitars, especially luthier built instruments.

Be careful its a genuine wolf note - sometimes a single high fret can choke sustain etc. from adjacent frets.
Try retuning the strings affected by a tone or so. A genuine wolf will move position since the frequency has changed.
In contrast, problems due to uneven frets will remain static.

Warblington · October 2018

Thank you for the explanation Steveh. I've sent the guitar back now so can't try retuning.That wasn't the only reason I wasn't impressed.I used to own a luthier built classical guitar which I spent big on.It was magnificent and I never noticed any wolf notes that were as obvious or outstanding as in this instance.I've owned another classical guitar by a different luthier and again, nothing noticeable.I am of the belief that this should have been picked up in the check before the guitar was sent.There's no dispute with the dealer btw but as previously mentioned,I have learnt a valuable lesson.

ICBM · October 2018

I think you were right to send it back. At best there was something badly wrong with the set-up, and at worst it had an odd resonance at that note. A fretting problem is also possible.

It’s also possible that the neck just had a slight back-bow which was causing the first three notes to choke and the fourth to ‘sitar’ against the 5th fret which could make an odd whiny tone, but that should have been spotted by the shop if they claim to have checked it - it’s unlikely to have just happened in transit.

Warblington · October 2018

The shop called me today about my refund. I questioned whether the guitar had been examined before sending out and he said yes and that everyone at the shop thought it was a great guitar. He basically said it was nothing major and wasn’t an issue they’d describe as a fault so I had to pay return postage and their sending cost. A £56 mistake.He advised me to try guitars out in person before buying. I suspect that they sell numerous guitars online so I find that a bit rich especially as it clearly wasn’t checked over properly.I’m disappointed.

ICBM · October 2018

Warblington said:

The shop called me today about my refund. I questioned whether the guitar had been examined before sending out and he said yes and that everyone at the shop thought it was a great guitar. He basically said it was nothing major and wasn’t an issue they’d describe as a fault so I had to pay return postage and their sending cost. A £56 mistake.He advised me to try guitars out in person before buying. I suspect that they sell numerous guitars online so I find that a bit rich especially as it clearly wasn’t checked over properly.I’m disappointed.

I would take that up with Trading Standards. At the least I don't think you have to pay their original sending postage, just the return.

And if they said it was "nothing major" rather than "no fault at all" they are also basically admitting there was a fault, just one they did not consider bad enough to warrant a return.

I don't think that's allowed under the Consumer Contracts Regulations.

Warblington · October 2018

I paid £46 to return the guitar because of insurance, they spent £10 sending it to me.I'm not going to rock the boat until my refund is with me.I'm not overfamiliar with acoustic guitars so I'm not sure what caused the note to ring louder and longer .There seems to be different reasons.Either way ,the 'custom set up' wasn't done as it wasn't discovered.No alterations were made to the guitar at the shop after they ordered it in. He gave me the impression that he/they didn't think it was a problem as though it was a common occurrence with acoustics and nothing to be concerned about.I will ask for a written explanation once the remainder of my money is returned.

skunkwerx · October 2018

I had a similar problem with an electric once.

Certain notes higher up the board would do this weird thing. I'd fret and hold the note, and could clearly hear what I'd describe as a harmonic also ringing out somewhere. I muted all other strings incase it was sympathetic resonance (is that correct?) but it didnt really help.

Now when I would release my finger off the fretted and sustained note, the harmonic would keep ringing out, from somewhere.

I sold it in the end, couldnt be bothered troubleshooting it myself.

So, what is this shop you bought yours from?

Sounds like a richtone type response.

Warblington · October 2018

skunkwerx said:

I had a similar problem with an electric once.

Certain notes higher up the board would do this weird thing. I'd fret and hold the note, and could clearly hear what I'd describe as a harmonic also ringing out somewhere. I muted all other strings incase it was sympathetic resonance (is that correct?) but it didnt really help.

Now when I would release my finger off the fretted and sustained note, the harmonic would keep ringing out, from somewhere.

I sold it in the end, couldnt be bothered troubleshooting it myself.

So, what is this shop you bought yours from?

Sounds like a richtone type response.

I do think what you described is called sympathetic resonance.At the time it didn’t occur to me to dampen the other strings as I noticed the problem when solely playing the top string. I’d rather not name the shop, but it is not Rich tone music. Cheers.

Fuengi · October 2018

Guitar Village sell a lot of Eastman's...

Warblington · October 2018

Not Guitar Village.

AliGorie · October 2018

on the subject - if u'r interested, an interesting discussion -

" Alan Carruth

Posts

1,314

Aside from added sustain, the other main benefit from a heavier bridge is that it reduces the chance of a 'wolf' note. Those can happen because the bridge is moving a lot at a particular frequency. The end of the string, which is supposed to be fixed, isn't, so it doesn't 'know' how long it is and what pitch it's supposed to make. It can end up making two different pitches at the same time, among other things. That's one reason they tend to use ebony bridges with scalloped bracing: the top is more flexible in the middle, and you need a heavier bridge to nail down the end of the string.

more on 'BRIDGES' and guitar sound -

https://umgf.com/wood-species-bridges-and-tone-t194815.html

Warblington · October 2018

Thanks AliGorie. Interesting reading.I've read that it can be down to frets but hadn't considered it could be due to the make up or stability of the bridge.Interesting guy,Alan Carruth. A mine of information.He is a regular contributor to the classical guitar forum Delcamp (or was, not been on it for ages).

Warblington · October 2018

The shop have refunded my money.It took a weekend several phone calls .Nobody at the shop can hear any difference between the adjacent notes and the note i refer to.They all think it's a great guitar.What can I say? I know it's not in my imagination.It has cost me £56 in shipping fees but they've told me they will refund me £20.End of story, lesson learnt.

artiebear · October 2018

Could also have been down to sympathetic vibration in the truss rod. By the time the guitar had been shipped back, a tiny movement in the neck could have negated the problem. It happens in some ,even very high end guitars , the more resonance the greater the potential for just one very frustrating point of contact between rod and wood ( especially unsheathed rods ) to create the issue. A miniscule movement of the rod one way or the other can alleviate the issue (or cause it ).

Warblington · October 2018

artiebear said:

Could also have been down to sympathetic vibration in the truss rod. By the time the guitar had been shipped back, a tiny movement in the neck could have negated the problem. It happens in some ,even very high end guitars , the more resonance the greater the potential for just one very frustrating point of contact between rod and wood ( especially unsheathed rods ) to create the issue. A miniscule movement of the rod one way or the other can alleviate the issue (or cause it ).

That's interesting.I must say I felt frustrated trying to tell them I experienced a sound that none of them back at the shop could detect.It felt as though I was in the dock for a crime I hadn't committed, a kind of 'please believe me' moment. Alternatively they did detect it and and rectified it.Thanks for your reply ,I learnt something else.

AliGorie · October 2018

a short clip is what I need to here ?.

Warblington · October 2018

AliGorie said:

a short clip is what I need to here ?.

I sent it back for a refund.I wish I had recorded it.

TINMAN82 · November 2018

Interesting. I’d like to know which shop so I can avoid them in the future. I was actually considering starting a thread about “shop set ups” or lack thereof.

Warblington · November 2018

TINMAN82 said:

Interesting. I’d like to know which shop so I can avoid them in the future. I was actually considering starting a thread about “shop set ups” or lack thereof.

Hi,
I'd rather not say actually.My experience is probably isolated based on their other reviews and despite my disappointment,I don't want to publicly name them. Every one comes up short sometimes.I think the tone of my thread reflects the frustration I felt at the time and I don't want to be vindictive.

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Is this a wolf note?

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