Adventures in acoustic buying

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

Extracted and expanded from the Gibson acoustic thread. I’ve been out and about looking for the holy grail - a do it all guitar that works well for backing up a singer, strumming, picking and fingertsyle (of sorts). Don’t need a bluegrass guitar nor do I need a Celtic wonder of DADGAD beauty, but if it can handle slack tunings a la Doughty then great. I don’t really like big bodied guitars - I find them too unwieldy.

I had a Lowden 0-23 for a few years and loved it but it was hopeless with a singer and for strumming for me, plus it was ridiculously huge, so I sold it. I bought a Martin 00-16m as a songwriting guitar in the interim and really love it, great neck, comfy, easy to play, sounds great but caves under pressure and lacks a bit of sparkle.

So off I went to try some stuff...

Gibson:
2012 J45 - average
2010s American Eagle - liked it but it was really trebly.
2018 J45 - very good - warm and thumpy, easy to play, finished by Stevie Wonder.
2018 J35 - very good - Louder and treblier than the J45, beefy rounded neck, light and airy. Someone forgot to finish sanding the soundbhole half way round.
2018 Hummingbird AG - wet cardboard box.

I was impressed by the 2018 Gibson models sonically and from a playing point of view. There were some q.c. Issues compared to other brands - the main finish was good, it’s just the details that are poor really, gaps between headstock face and nut, sanding marks round sound hole, rough sanding on braces, poor finish where neck meets body and the like. The sunburst finish itself was quite nicely done. Really don’t like the Grovers either.

I also tried a Martin OMC-35e - sounded a bit dull, really needed new strings; a Martin HD28 - lovely but too much boom in the bass; a D18 - nice and tight, not the best one I’ve played recently though; a DPCm thing - sounded good and felt nice, but not quite what I want in a Martin; an Atkin O-37 relic - nice guitar, didn’t like the relic finish; and a Taylor 12-fretter, which as usual with Taylors just didn’t work for my ear.

So out of them all, it was the J45 or D18 I liked the best sonically, though I still find them unwieldy, the 0-37 and American Eagle for size but they don’t really strum well, and the OMC for something in the middle and my favourite acoustic neck profile ever.

None of them made me buy, but I’m getting closer. I think I fundamentally prefer the Martin sound to Gibson.

richardhomer · September 2018

I’d certainly seek out a decent 000 or OM. You’ll lose some of the bass end of a Martin Dreadnought - but they’re much more manageable and have great balance.

If they sound too light, you may just need to compromise of ease of handling. An older standard D28 (before they went to forward-shifted bracing) may well suit - not as boomy as the HDs. They finger pick well, too.

mgaw · September 2018

I have a Benjamin JOM, which stands for Jumbo OM , which is a size he "borrowed" from a Bourgeois model...it has a bigger lower bout and the depth of a dreadnought and the comfort of an OM, needless to say it is the best all rounder i have had due to increased bass, more volume on tap if needed etc etc..

I would certainly recommend the size for anybody looking for an all-rounder but finds OM lacking a bit.

I have tried quite a few gibsons of late and i do think the OP should consider how he intends to use the guitar, if its solo/at home/live then the good ones are a great sound for accompnying the singer, in a band setting i find they get lost in the mix and i far prefer a bright sounding guitar with a lot of cut

BigLicks67 · September 2018

I'd try a Bourgeois JOM or a Collings OM. When I'm singing I find a Martin dread a bit overpowering, so it depends on the style and power of the singer you are accompanying. Here's a good example of the 2 guitars above with a 'softer lead vocal'.

Salsburg tends to use open tunings with his JOM.

ESBlonde · September 2018

BigLicks67 said:

I'd try a Bourgeois JOM or a Collings OM. When I'm singing I find a Martin dread a bit overpowering, so it depends on the style and power of the singer you are accompanying. Here's a good example of the 2 guitars above with a 'softer lead vocal'.

Salsburg tends to use open tunings with his JOM.

Bloody Steph McGovern seems to get into everything these days!

;-)

Winny_Pooh · September 2018

Tried a OO18?

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

Winny_Pooh said:

Tried a OO18?

I have, of sorts, it was a Cowboy LE with VTS and I would have bought it at its heavily discounted price if it hadn’t had a massive Cowboy and some steers painted on the front

In all honesty, though it was a nice guitar it wasnt The Answer...

brooom · September 2018

The 00-18V is great, I'm considering whether to keep mine, which is a 00-18V or getting a CEO-7 which is similarly sized.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

I should add here that there is a budget in play, and it doesn’t stretch to Bougeois or Collings, absolute tops would be 2.3k but ideally I’d like to stay under 1.5k, this needs to be a working guitar (in the sense of playing shitty gigs and open mics and the like).

That's not to say I don't appreciate the suggestions, I do - thanks all for the input!

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

richardhomer said:

I’d certainly seek out a decent 000 or OM. You’ll lose some of the bass end of a Martin Dreadnought - but they’re much more manageable and have great balance.

If they sound too light, you may just need to compromise of ease of handling. An older standard D28 (before they went to forward-shifted bracing) may well suit - not as boomy as the HDs. They finger pick well, too.

Interesting - the HD is more boomy? I thought they were meant to be better all round but that matches my experience. I much prefer D18s to D28s it seems in any case. At least in real life, in online demos I find D28s sound equally as good. Probably my fingers!

jellyroll · September 2018

I bought an HD28 last week. It is boomy - but I'm hoping to tame it with string choice.

danishbacon · September 2018

See if you can find any higher end Furch OM guitars near you. Worthwhile trying one out.

richardhomer · September 2018

Moe_Zambeek said:
Interesting - the HD is more boomy? I thought they were meant to be better all round but that matches my experience. I much prefer D18s to D28s it seems in any case. At least in real life, in online demos I find D28s sound equally as good. Probably my fingers!

Absolutely my experience - lots of highs, lots of deep lows - but not what you’d really call ‘balanced’. I much prefer the (old) standard model.

Lewy · September 2018

jellyroll said:

I bought an HD28 last week. It is boomy - but I'm hoping to tame it with string choice.

80/20 bronze probably a good place to start...

Wazmeister · September 2018

Interesting thread mate, and as you may have guessed from my recent threads, I’m about to embark on it again...

I previously went down this route and purchased a lovely Collings OM1 Custom; nonetheless, it never lost it’s ‘stiff’ feel and i sold it on.

A fellow recent band member has had a simple £550 Taylor 12E, and it sounds mega through the PA....

Makes you think

AliGorie · September 2018

Hmm - Moez ya seem all at sea on this - or so it seems though in u'r favor there is a lot of choice, just to confuse.

I have a Bourgie JOM - modified OM shape with Dread depth, which sits nicely between an OM and a Dread and covers the variety of style I play in.

I'm interested in that (some) guitars u tried were 'overpowering' - surely that's down to u'r technique - ?.

I also detect that u seem to be focusing on the 'big names' - E.G. - go try a Furch or Lakewood etc v/good instruments.

rustneversleeps · September 2018

If you can find one sounds like a Martin M36 could be the “one”.Ive had one for years and found it great in all situations.Its not too boomy and a great all rounder.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

Wazmeister said:

Interesting thread mate, and as you may have guessed from my recent threads, I’m about to embark on it again...

I previously went down this route and purchased a lovely Collings OM1 Custom; nonetheless, it never lost it’s ‘stiff’ feel and i sold it on.

A fellow recent band member has had a simple £550 Taylor 12E, and it sounds mega through the PA....

Makes you think

The use case question is a good one, if you only want it for live use then how it sounds through the PA is the main thing, maybe....

Feel free to add to this thread if you’re having adventures in acoustic buying too! Surprised you didn’t like the Collings but I can also see where you’re coming from, having tried a few in the past (dreads only though).

rustneversleeps said:

If you can find one sounds like a Martin M36 could be the “one”.Ive had one for years and found it great in all situations.Its not too boomy and a great all rounder.

These have been mentioned a few times elsewhere - I must try to find one to try.

rustneversleeps · September 2018

Moe_Zambeek said:

Wazmeister said:

Interesting thread mate, and as you may have guessed from my recent threads, I’m about to embark on it again...

I previously went down this route and purchased a lovely Collings OM1 Custom; nonetheless, it never lost it’s ‘stiff’ feel and i sold it on.

A fellow recent band member has had a simple £550 Taylor 12E, and it sounds mega through the PA....

Makes you think

The use case question is a good one, if you only want it for live use then how it sounds through the PA is the main thing, maybe....

Feel free to add to this thread if you’re having adventures in acoustic buying too! Surprised you didn’t like the Collings but I can also see where you’re coming from, having tried a few in the past (dreads only though).

rustneversleeps said:

If you can find one sounds like a Martin M36 could be the “one”.Ive had one for years and found it great in all situations.Its not too boomy and a great all rounder.

These have been mentioned a few times elsewhere - I must try to find one to try.

I will interested once you try one .I was a bit like you when looking I went through the full menu.As I stopped playing as much and gigging I foolishly sold it.A guy come from France to buy it .He was a professional session man.They really are great if not a bit “uncool”

TimmyO · September 2018

I tried an M36 when I was on a buying/looking spree once. I *really* liked it but kind of passed it over as you just don't hear of people playing them or talking about them (silly of me I know) - that plus when I thought about it again I only knew of one shop in London stocking so couldn't easily go back and check it out

uncledick · September 2018

danishbacon said:

See if you can find any higher end Furch OM guitars near you. Worthwhile trying one out.

Beat me to it...

The best I've played under £1500.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

uncledick said:

danishbacon said:

See if you can find any higher end Furch OM guitars near you. Worthwhile trying one out.

Beat me to it...

The best I've played under £1500.

I'll see what's around. They don't seem to have so many dealers these days...

earwighoney · September 2018

Moe_Zambeek said:

Don’t need a bluegrass guitar nor do I need a Celtic wonder of DADGAD beauty, but if it can handle slack tunings a la Doughty then great. I don’t really like big bodied guitars - I find them too unwieldy.

I had a Lowden 0-23 for a few years and loved it but it was hopeless with a singer and for strumming for me, plus it was ridiculously huge, so I sold it. I bought a Martin 00-16m as a songwriting guitar in the interim and really love it, great neck, comfy, easy to play, sounds great but caves under pressure and lacks a bit of sparkle.

None of them made me buy, but I’m getting closer. I think I fundamentally prefer the Martin sound to Gibson.

What body size are you after and what is your playing style? Do you mainly play standing up or sitting down? Are you a strummer or a fingerpicker? Do you need a guitar with a thicker neck, do you need one with wide string spacing at the nut/saddle?

IMO, there is a significant difference for playability for acoustic body sizes when the lower bout is smaller or larger than an inch, for example Jumbo/Lowden O size 16", Martin Dread/Gibson J-45 - 16", Martin 000/OM - 15", Martin OO - 14".

It sounds like you might be after Martin 00-16M with a bit more sparkle in that particular body size, I think the rosewood back and sides of the Martin 00-28 seeming to be an excellent fit but it's £2.7k new. 14 fret 00's are fairly thin on the ground though, the only other rosewood models I can think of under a £1.5k are the Eastman E20SS, Sigma have a few as well.

Under a £1.5k or so, the Furch guitars are excellent. The Rainbow series are the their modern inspired series, and their Vintage ones are the Martin inspired ones. They generally come with a 45mm wide nut which may or may not be a good thing for you.

Moe_Zambeek · September 2018

earwighoney said:

Moe_Zambeek said:

Don’t need a bluegrass guitar nor do I need a Celtic wonder of DADGAD beauty, but if it can handle slack tunings a la Doughty then great. I don’t really like big bodied guitars - I find them too unwieldy.

I had a Lowden 0-23 for a few years and loved it but it was hopeless with a singer and for strumming for me, plus it was ridiculously huge, so I sold it. I bought a Martin 00-16m as a songwriting guitar in the interim and really love it, great neck, comfy, easy to play, sounds great but caves under pressure and lacks a bit of sparkle.

None of them made me buy, but I’m getting closer. I think I fundamentally prefer the Martin sound to Gibson.

What body size are you after and what is your playing style? Do you mainly play standing up or sitting down? Are you a strummer or a fingerpicker? Do you need a guitar with a thicker neck, do you need one with wide string spacing at the nut/saddle?

IMO, there is a significant difference for playability for acoustic body sizes when the lower bout is smaller or larger than an inch, for example Jumbo/Lowden O size 16", Martin Dread/Gibson J-45 - 16", Martin 000/OM - 15", Martin OO - 14".

It sounds like you might be after Martin 00-16M with a bit more sparkle in that particular body size, I think the rosewood back and sides of the Martin 00-28 seeming to be an excellent fit but it's £2.7k new. 14 fret 00's are fairly thin on the ground though, the only other rosewood models I can think of under a £1.5k are the Eastman E20SS, Sigma have a few as well.

Under a £1.5k or so, the Furch guitars are excellent. The Rainbow series are the their modern inspired series, and their Vintage ones are the Martin inspired ones. They generally come with a 45mm wide nut which may or may not be a good thing for you.

Thanks for the response.

I like a smaller guitar, more for depth than anything else, though with a Lowden O you cant even sit on a chair properly without the bottom end contacting the chair, you have to sit at an angle..so width of the lower bout *and* width of the waist is a consideration too. In rehearsal i'll generally be sitting, live more likely to be standing but not always. I found the Lowden neck to be both too big and too wide and generally that made the guitar harder to play for me than - say - the 1 11/16" 00-16 neck with Martin's low profile neck shape. In Gibson land, I am perfectly happy with the standard J45 neck but the J35 was a bit too large and rounded for my tastes. The ulta-modern (ish) Martin profile on the OMC was pretty much perfect for me.

My playing style is 'hack' - call it general acoustic playing. As noted, no Celtic fingerstyle, no flatpicking bluegrass, mainly backing a singer with chords and part-chords and the like. A bit of basic fingerstyle stuff for fun. I do like to drop down to open C for a few tunes so a longer scale can help - haven't tried that with the 00 but I suspect it'll not work, currently I use my old Jasmine electro for that (unplugged). It sounds pretty bad but it's passable at home!

00-28s and 18s are on my radar for sure, though there aren't that many around at the moment.

Thanks for the suggestions

TimmyO · September 2018

Man, I love the handle-ability of 00 sized guitars but I just can't pretend I like the sound (and I've tried)

jellyroll · September 2018

Lewy said:

jellyroll said:

I bought an HD28 last week. It is boomy - but I'm hoping to tame it with string choice.

80/20 bronze probably a good place to start...

I hear ya..

Wazmeister · September 2018

My journey has just reached it's conclusion

Strat_a_tat_tat · September 2018

@Wazmeister. ; Very nice. Mr Atkin does good work.

Moe_Zambeek · November 2018

Finding myself in deepest England I took myself off to an internet dealers of some repute I’ve not visited before, and once recovered from the shock of how small the place is, I tried some Atkins. I have to say - for me - Atkin are not to my taste. I’ve now tried 2 OMs (essential series), an O-37, a couple of dreads (D37s) and their White Rice. I really don’t like the relicing and I dont really like their fretwork either, it has some room for improvement on the seating, fret-end finishing and general polishing IMO (the latter maybe relating to the relicing I guess), but fundamentally they just didn’t sound the way I wanted. They were all very rattly and quite toppy sounding. The White Rice I expected to be big sounding but it was quieter than the regular dread. Very underwhelming for my playing style and my ‘ear’. Nicely made otherwise...

Of the remainder of the stock I tried, I preferred the Martin OM28 reimagined which was nicely balanced sounding with a lovely neck, if a little rough looking internally, and a Martin 000-15Me which was punchy and solid sounding, though neither provoked a credit card bending.

Still good to knock some more off the list!

jellyroll · November 2018

I'm glad Atkin are around, building guitars in the UK. But they are essentially Martin copies - nothing inherently wrong with that. But given that Atkin pricing is pretty much the same as the Martin Standard Series, why wouldn't one just buy a Martin and get the "original" with lower depreciation cost? I suppose, British built & hand made carries some weight with some buyers, but for me they need to do either do their "own thing" or lower their prices or make "better" Martins a la Collings & Santa Cruz. IMO, etc.....

Lewy · November 2018

jellyroll said:

I'm glad Atkin are around, building guitars in the UK. But they are essentially Martin copies - nothing inherently wrong with that. But given that Atkin pricing is pretty much the same as the Martin Standard Series, why wouldn't one just buy a Martin and get the "original" with lower depreciation cost?

I speak with no real experience of Atkin guitars but my answer would be that based on spec, if you wanted a D28 you’d get a better one buying an Atkin than a Standard series Martin. You’d know what you’d be getting from a materials point of view (a standard Martin neck could be made of Mahogany, could be Spanish Cedar...not sure if they use anything else but they could as they just specify “select hardwood”), have a thinner finish and the setup would likely be better.

I’m not sure there’s much in it from a depreciation point of view.

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Adventures in acoustic buying

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