Mahogany v Rosewood

jellyroll · August 2018

Having 3 OM variants, I feel that in the interests of scientific research I ought to “home test” a dreadnought.

This has got me thinking about Mahogany vs Rosewood back & sides; essentially D18 vs D28.

The differences between my Mahogany (apologies, I cannot bring my self to type “hog”) and Rosewood OMs may be due to the wood but could be due to other differences between my guitars (different scale lengths, 12 vs 14 frets, handmade vs factory, etc).

My gut feel about the impact of the wood is that Mahogany makes the guitar more visceral and immediate whilst Rosewood makes the guitar thicker sounding, warmer, a little more orchestral.

Does any of that resonate with you guys? Or am I ascribing characteristics to the wood which are, in fact, the result of other features of the guitars?

I suppose I’m wondering if, because my preferred OM is Mahogany (Spruce top), my preferred Dred is also likely to be Mahogany. Or maybe I prefer that particular OM despite it being Mahogany rather than because it is Mahogany....

All these existential questions.....

What is your experience of the two woods?

BigLicks67 · August 2018

My initial response tends to be that Mahogany has more warmth to the sound and Rosewood is more hi fi in sound. From a listening point of view I think a Rosewood dread sounds better, but I like the qualities of mahogany when playing. Obviously, this is based on identical or similar instruments from the same maker, a quality luthier could make a guitar made from any wood sound good I'd imagine.

AliGorie · August 2018

BigLicks67 said:

My initial response tends to be that Mahogany has more warmth to the sound and Rosewood is more hi fi in sound. From a listening point of view I think a Rosewood dread sounds better, but I like the qualities of mahogany when playing. Obviously, this is based on identical or similar instruments from the same maker, a quality luthier could make a guitar made from any wood sound good I'd imagine.

an aspect that's often overlooked is the (scientifically named) 'Velocity of Sound',

viz"Mahogany has more warmth to the sound and Rosewood is more hi fi in sound."

not got much time now (aren't u lucky?) more latter.

ICBM · August 2018

Maple.

earwighoney · August 2018

jellyroll said:

Having 3 OM variants, I feel that in the interests of scientific research I ought to “home test” a dreadnought.

This has got me thinking about Mahogany vs Rosewood back & sides; essentially D18 vs D28.

The differences between my Mahogany (apologies, I cannot bring my self to type “hog”) and Rosewood OMs may be due to the wood but could be due to other differences between my guitars (different scale lengths, 12 vs 14 frets, handmade vs factory, etc).

My gut feel about the impact of the wood is that Mahogany makes the guitar more visceral and immediate whilst Rosewood makes the guitar thicker sounding, warmer, a little more orchestral.

Does any of that resonate with you guys? Or am I ascribing characteristics to the wood which are, in fact, the result of other features of the guitars?

I suppose I’m wondering if, because my preferred OM is Mahogany (Spruce top), my preferred Dred is also likely to be Mahogany. Or maybe I prefer that particular OM despite it being Mahogany rather than because it is Mahogany....

All these existential questions.....

What is your experience of the two woods?

All things being exact for soundboard and bracing (which it never is) the presumption Mahogany guitars favour the midrange and have a dryer response whilst Rosewood ones have more presence and sustain in the bass and trebles. So it could be seen that Mahogany is 'warmer' and rosewood guitars could be 'brighter' and 'darker' at the same time.

There are other woods as well, Maple being the 'another' alternative with the possibly the greatest history after the two already mentioned.

octatonic · August 2018

IMHO wood species is less important than other design elements.
There is a difference but it is less pronounced that 12 vs 14 fret, or bracing stiffness, soundboard tap tuning etc.

Also you get variation from one piece of rosewood or mahogany to another.
They have tendencies though and mahogany has a more pronounced midrange with a soft top end.
Paired with a Sitka SB is quite different to a mahogany SB.

Rosewood has a more neutral middle and sweeter top end.

You can ruin either build by screwing up the bracing.

earwighoney · August 2018

octatonic said:

IMHO wood species is less important than other design elements.
There is a difference but it is less pronounced that 12 vs 14 fret, or bracing stiffness, soundboard tap tuning etc.

Also you get variation from one piece of rosewood or mahogany to another.
They have tendencies though and mahogany has a more pronounced midrange with a soft top end.
Paired with a Sitka SB is quite different to a mahogany SB.

Rosewood has a more neutral middle and sweeter top end.

You can ruin either build by screwing up the bracing.

I agree about bracing, as the maker of an acoustic guitar will contribute far greater to the tonal identity of the guitar than the materials and bracing is one of the factors the maker will provide their own character to the tonal identity.

A Taylor made from Spruce/Rosewood will sound considerably different to a Martin of the same materials. Not better or worse but different.

stuartryanmusic · August 2018

I've become a big fan of mahogany, especially for fingerstyle - I prefer the string separation and each string sits perfectly in its own space whereas rosewood (to my ears at least) creates a certain 'smearing' between the strings which can be great for some things. The fast, dry response of mahogany and adirondack has become the ultimate combination for me!

terada · August 2018

Firstly, both can be absolutely lovely, and the process of going out and trying loads is great fun.

In general (and all else being equal) Rosewood b/s would be slightly scooped, while mahogany b/s would have a flatter or slightly mid pushed eq curve.

But bracing and body size also play a very important role. In very general terms, either forward shifting the bracing or having thinner bracing would encourage a boomier response.

With regard to the D18 and D28 (reimagined), both have 5/16" forward shifted bracing. However, the D18 has scalloped bracing, which makes them thinner and therefore the top is more able to vibrate. For a scalloped D28 guitar you'd be looking at an HD28.

crunchman · August 2018

terada said:

For a scalloped D28 guitar you'd be looking at an HD28.

The older HD28s weren't "forward shifted" - it was just a scalloped version of the bracing on the D28. To get forward shifted scalloped bracing you had to go for the HD28V. If you buy second hand bear this in mind.

Almost all of the new ones have 1 3/4" nut width. Glad I bought my HD28V when it was 1 11/16".

terada · August 2018

crunchman said:

terada said:

For a scalloped D28 guitar you'd be looking at an HD28.

The older HD28s weren't "forward shifted" - it was just a scalloped version of the bracing on the D28. To get forward shifted scalloped bracing you had to go for the HD28V. If you buy second hand bear this in mind.

Almost all of the new ones have 1 3/4" nut width. Glad I bought my HD28V when it was 1 11/16".

Thanks, didn't realise that. Completely agree with you on the 1 11/16 nut, glad I picked up my HD35 a few years ago also!

How do you find the v neck on the 28v?

It is a shame as I'd love a 15 series with short scale and 1 11/16 nut, but they don't make them anymore

crunchman · August 2018

terada said:

crunchman said:

terada said:

For a scalloped D28 guitar you'd be looking at an HD28.

The older HD28s weren't "forward shifted" - it was just a scalloped version of the bracing on the D28. To get forward shifted scalloped bracing you had to go for the HD28V. If you buy second hand bear this in mind.

Almost all of the new ones have 1 3/4" nut width. Glad I bought my HD28V when it was 1 11/16".

Thanks, didn't realise that. Completely agree with you on the 1 11/16 nut, glad I picked up my HD35 a few years ago also!

How do you find the v neck on the 28v?

It is a shame as I'd love a 15 series with short scale and 1 11/16 nut, but they don't make them anymore

Love it.

I've been looking at electrics with V necks as well. That 10/56 Fender neck is appealing.

BigLicks67 · August 2018

crunchman said:

terada said:

crunchman said:

terada said:

How do you find the v neck on the 28v?

It is a shame as I'd love a 15 series with short scale and 1 11/16 nut, but they don't make them anymore

Love it.

I've been looking at electrics with V necks as well. That 10/56 Fender neck is appealing.

I'd be careful with the Fender V necks. I love the neck on my OM18V but really couldn't get on the EJ strat neck which was described as a soft V.

stickyfiddle · August 2018

I really like mahogany in other people's hands, but for some reason I always find myself wanting lots of top end for my own gear, so prefer rosewood.

When I bought my Dove (maple, obv) I played it against a bunch of D18/D28/etc types and the close second was a D28. I've since swapped the Dove for a mid-2000s HD28 and it's basically the perfect "acoustic guitar sound in my head"-sound. Not as toppy as the Dove but much richer

Gagaryn · August 2018

All things being equal, think I prefer mahogany although rosewood generally looks nicer. Mahogany with adirondack spruce is a nice combo. :-)

AliGorie · August 2018

Jel, sorry for my seemingly ot input above - it was something I was thinking about 'immediacy' of sound - but hey, Stuzzy made a comment re 'fast response' which some guitars have. A lot has to do with the sound board design / materials but the b/sides contribute a distinct ’reflective’ quality to the timbre.
Having played mainly acoustic for over fifty years I’ve come to the conclusion it’s the WHOLE guitar not the component parts - u said -
Mahogany (apologies, I cannot bring my self to type “hog”) and Rosewood OMs may be due to the wood but could be due to other differences between my guitars (different scale lengths, 12 vs 14 frets, handmade vs factory, etc). “
Well with this seemingly simple example - u got many differences - e.g. soundboard thickness, bracing dimensions / profile / positioning and so on - lets not forget bridge plate material and dimensions - only joking (or an I).
Nah - it’s the whole thing.
I’ve also said here in the past - given MY string choice AND playing technique I find these override top and back materials - I generate my sound on any (well made) guitar.

jellyroll · August 2018

Thanks all. Ali - you're probably right, I'm overthinking it and should just consider each guitar on its merits. Truth is though, I love thinking about this stuff...

AliGorie · August 2018

JR - I’d suggest u try a bit of building - I know it may seem at first an ott doting task.
It would move / replace the endless cycle of ‘GAS’ and replace it with ‘WAS’ (wood acquisition syndrome’) and / or ‘TAS’ (tool acquisition syndrome’) - just my experience.

I got the opportunity on retirement to do a two year course at the Anniesland (Glasgow), I thought it had folded but thankfully seems to have morphed into - Glasgow School of Lutherie / Glasgow Clyde College

https://www.facebook.com/770151089739379/photos/a.777604092327412/1042490745838744/?type=3

jellyroll · August 2018

Thanks@AliGorie.

I’m imagining the conversation with my wife...

”Darling (for that is how I address her) I shan’t be buying any more guitars”

”Oh, good”

”From now on, I’m going to make my own. All I’ll need is a few hand tools and a workbench. And some wood of course. Some Mahogany for the back and sides. Some Spruce. Ebony for the appointments. Perhaps some Koa for the binding. Maybe an electric saw. And a router. Some chemicals for spraying the coating. And ventilation of course. And some where to hang the guitar between spray coats....”

”Jelly, just go to a shop and BUY the bloody guitar”

Win Win!

AliGorie · August 2018

sorry to go off topic JR, yeah when I'd finished the course my family WANTED me to create a 'workshop' - I costed it - eh no.

I did amass a nice wee stash of tonewood though.

At my stage in life laying out £xxxx?? didn't seem a sensible thing to be doing - so chickened out.

My point was, I have never thought about changing guitars, after much consideration once the initial purchase is decided on - thats it. Two main guitars - one for 30 yrs one for 20 years (gigging) though I did buy a far eastern knock about which goes to 'jams' etc. great little OM -ish I dont have to worry about. I find the elusiveness of 'the music', both in playing and composing is satisfying enough for me.

jellyroll · August 2018

AliGorie said:

I find the elusiveness of 'the music', both in playing and composing is satisfying enough for me.

I’m a little different. Just like playing with different cameras is part of my photography hobby, so is experiencing the sound of different guitars part of this hobby. It may well be a reflection of my musical shortcomings - which are abundant! I’m not obsessing though; I don’t really have GAS - that driving need to buy more - I’m just curious and interested about different instruments. I admire the craftsmanship and the beauty of different woods and enjoy the different experiences each instrument can bring.

thomasross20 · June 2019

Which is better in a live setting?

I ask because re electrics... My basswood suhr sounds spectacular on its own but my mahogany PRS cuts through better.

From what I recall, I prefer mahogany acoustics (to play). To listen to, I'm not sure. The bass and treble are definitely not as pronounced with mahogany.

earwighoney · June 2019

thomasross20 said:

Which is better in a live setting?

I ask because re electrics... My basswood suhr sounds spectacular on its own but my mahogany PRS cuts through better.

From what I recall, I prefer mahogany acoustics (to play). To listen to, I'm not sure. The bass and treble are definitely not as pronounced with mahogany.

AKAIK, UST pickups just amplify the the sound of the soundboard so the back and sides is largely irrelevant. When I did some work on the mixing desk for live events my ears seemed to prefer the sound of all mahogany guitars.

ArchtopDave · June 2019

jellyroll said:

Thanks@AliGorie.

I’m imagining the conversation with my wife...

”Darling (for that is how I address her) I shan’t be buying any more guitars”

”Oh, good”

”From now on, I’m going to make my own. All I’ll need is a few hand tools and a workbench. And some wood of course. Some Mahogany for the back and sides. Some Spruce. Ebony for the appointments. Perhaps some Koa for the binding. Maybe an electric saw. And a router. Some chemicals for spraying the coating. And ventilation of course. And some where to hang the guitar between spray coats....”

”Jelly, just go to a shop and BUY the bloody guitar”

Win Win!

Whilst the is undoubtedly an individuality to the sound of any particular acoustic, I think that the woods used for the back and sides generally conform to a certain "sound" in relation to the wood used. I was at a Taylor guitar clinic some years ago, and there were 3 OM's which were identical apart from the Back and Sides : one had Maple, another had Rosewood, and the 3rd had Koa. The differences between the 3 were pretty distinct with the Maple being the brightest, the Koa was rather softer and less distinct in definition than the Rosewood, which had the sound that I preferred.

Regarding making your own guitar, I've made 3 guitars in the past on Mark Bailey's Build Your Own Guitar Courses, including an Acoustic, which turned out to be a really nice guitar. I posted a Thread here on the build a while back.OM Acoustic Build (Mark Bailey Course)

thomasross20 · June 2019

earwighoney said:

thomasross20 said:

Which is better in a live setting?

I ask because re electrics... My basswood suhr sounds spectacular on its own but my mahogany PRS cuts through better.

From what I recall, I prefer mahogany acoustics (to play). To listen to, I'm not sure. The bass and treble are definitely not as pronounced with mahogany.

AKAIK, UST pickups just amplify the the sound of the soundboard so the back and sides is largely irrelevant. When I did some work on the mixing desk for live events my ears seemed to prefer the sound of all mahogany guitars.

So a K&K wouldn't necessarily amplify any differences. Good to know!

ToneControl · June 2019

thomasross20 said:

earwighoney said:

thomasross20 said:

Which is better in a live setting?

I ask because re electrics... My basswood suhr sounds spectacular on its own but my mahogany PRS cuts through better.

From what I recall, I prefer mahogany acoustics (to play). To listen to, I'm not sure. The bass and treble are definitely not as pronounced with mahogany.

AKAIK, UST pickups just amplify the the sound of the soundboard so the back and sides is largely irrelevant. When I did some work on the mixing desk for live events my ears seemed to prefer the sound of all mahogany guitars.

So a K&K wouldn't necessarily amplify any differences. Good to know!

I think that Tommy Emmanuel used to play an MDF Maton live to show that the pickups do almost the whole job

ToneControl · June 2019

As @octatonic ; says the design makes the biggest difference.
A parlour guitar is not going to sound like a Dreadnought
12 fretted guitars sound very different, the saddle is in the centre of the vibrating part of the soundboard
Factory-made guitars are unlikely to have fine-tunings to the soundboard bracing

Given all that, once you're paying to get all that just the way you want, all that's left is to get the woods right for you
I found walnut / adirondack too bright for me, but I play fingerstyle with half-skin, half-nails
At present I'm probably most leaning to the rosewood end, and often prefer cedar tops

ToneControl · June 2019

Here's some comparisons of Tayloe East India Rosewood vs Brazilian on the same models

Thing is, I'm guessing that the Braz ones get a lot more time with a top luthier, and would assume they are more likely to have been tap-tuned

earwighoney · June 2019

ToneControl said:

Thing is, I'm guessing that the Braz ones get a lot more time with a top luthier, and would assume they are more likely to have been tap-tuned

AFAIK, it's the soundboards which are tap tuned not the backs.

FWIW, I prefered the sound of the EIR one. IMO Taylors are voiced to be on the brighter side of things, and with the EIR it sounded brighter and clearer. With the BRZ it was a bit too dark, almost a little muddy.

I've spent a huge amount on 'exlusive' Rosewood upgrades on guitars (I don't want to know how much) and I've come to conclusion it doesn't make as much of a difference as was worth spending the upgrades. If I could have gone back I'd have bought the base model and spent the rest on better microphones and so on!

ToneControl · June 2019

earwighoney said:

ToneControl said:

Thing is, I'm guessing that the Braz ones get a lot more time with a top luthier, and would assume they are more likely to have been tap-tuned

AFAIK, it's the soundboards which are tap tuned not the backs.

FWIW, I prefered the sound of the EIR one. IMO Taylors are voiced to be on the brighter side of things, and with the EIR it sounded brighter and clearer. With the BRZ it was a bit too dark, almost a little muddy.

I've spent a huge amount on 'exlusive' Rosewood upgrades on guitars (I don't want to know how much) and I've come to conclusion it doesn't make as much of a difference as was worth spending the upgrades. If I could have gone back I'd have bought the base model and spent the rest on better microphones and so on!

I'm meaning that if Taylor are asking 3x the price for the Braz, they will probably have spent more time and effort on the whole guitar, including the top

thomasross20 · June 2019

I've been lusting over a proper Martin, I must admit... but why... at nearly £3k and given I'm not gigging... my Larrivee does a great job. I might still go to the guitar shop this weekend for a play, though.

Along the same lines (and sorry I know this is an acoustic forum!) I have the mahogany PRS and basswood Suhr but a mahogany Suhr would kill both them I think. But the cost would be more than I'd get for the other two combined so what's the point. Maybe better to keep the money and just play what I've got!

If playing live I would be fine just taking my Taylor Mini. Playing at home it is nice to have a proper good acoustic. Must stop these thoughts lol.

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