Which guitars between £1500 and £4000 fit these descriptions as standard?

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Background. My wife has small hand's, strum's her guitar whilst singing and is 5ft 2 1/2 with dimensions all in proportion ;-) She has had an L-00 but would like something that holds up a bit better with strumming and/or just has a little more sustain in quiet moments. She would like the guitar to look pretty as well but we can sort that aftermarket.

We have around £2500 to spend for new or second hand. All I can think of at the moment is a Taylor 712ce ordered with 1 11/16 nut width. Below is what's required. PLEASE LIST ANY SUGGESTIONS. I know most likely a 00 will be winning no strumming awards!! Huss or Collins etc do anything? Any other pointers?

SPECS NEEDED:

Smaller than 1 3/4 inch nut. Example 1 11/16 (42.8mm) or 1 23/32 (43.8mm)
Around a 00 body size (000 is bigger than i'm looking for).
14 Fret Neck Join (not a 12 fret)
25 inch or smaller scale length

Funkfingers · July 2018

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Acoustic-Instruments/2017/L-00-Standard.aspx

KKJale · July 2018

A Collings Baby looks very pretty, has a 1 11/16" nut, is narrower than a 00, has a 14-fret neck and a 24.1" scale. You'll be looking for a used one, but the budget might just do.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks Funkfingers,

She has had an L-00 but would like something that holds up a bit better with strumming and/or just has a little more sustain in quiet moments

KKJale

A Collings Baby looks very pretty, has a 1 11/16" nut, is narrower than a 00, has a 14-fret neck and a 24.1" scale. You'll be looking for a used one, but the budget might just do.

That could do it, but would I be better with a tad bigger than a 00 rather than a tad smaller/narrower. Might I lose sustain and some bottom end rather than gain? The 2016 Gibson L-00 standard size was good size wise, just need sustain rather than lovely dry tone's.

Put simply, would a strummed Collings Baby be more, or at least as full, as a 2016 Gibson L-00 Standard when strummed. Would it sustain better than a Gibson L-00 Standard. Obviously we are generalising a little to narrow things down.

Lewy · July 2018

The Collings 01 is bigger than the Baby and has a 1 11/16” nut as standard.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks Lewy

That fits the bill near perfectly. The only thing that would worry me is going from C shape all her life to a modified V on the Collings 01. Not a write of but would have to spend a good couple hours playing to make sure it wouldn't be uncomfortable. She's playing at events, sometimes 1 hour straight. I wonder if you can get the 01 with a C shape and if anyone out there is selling one if so :-(

Lewy · July 2018

Gareth1234 said:

Thanks Lewy

That fits the bill near perfectly. The only thing that would worry me is going from C shape all her life to a modified V on the Collings 01. Not a write of but would have to spend a good couple hours playing to make sure it wouldn't be uncomfortable. She's playing at events, sometimes 1 hour straight. I wonder if you can get the 01 with a C shape and if anyone out there is selling one if so :-(

The Collings modified V is exceptionally comfortable...you don’t really feel the V when you play it, or at least I don’t.

BigLicks67 · July 2018

How about a Lowden S series. Small bodied with 14th fret neck join, 630mm scale and a choice of 43 or 45 mm nut width. Modern neck profile.
Here's an S50 in action but there are much cheaper options than this :

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks Lewy

The Collings modified V is exceptionally comfortable...you don’t really feel the V when you play it, or at least I don’t.

I will try get my hands on one to try. Hopefully Collings version of the modified V neck is about as comfortable as a C for folk who prefer C shapes.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

How about a Lowden S series. Small bodied with 14th fret neck join, 630mm scale and a choice of 43 or 45 mm nut width. Modern neck profile.

Thanks BickLicks67

My budget is £2500 ish. The Lowden S comes with a 45mm nut as standard. I would be buying used on my budget for a Lowden S, so would have to find someone who specified a 43mm nut width from the factory I guess. Which may be hard to find?

earwighoney · July 2018

Gareth1234 said:

Background. My wife has small hand's, strum's her guitar whilst singing and is 5ft 2 1/2 with dimensions all in proportion ;-) She has had an L-00 but would like something that holds up a bit better with strumming and/or just has a little more sustain in quiet moments. She would like the guitar to look pretty as well but we can sort that aftermarket.

We have around £2500 to spend for new or second hand. All I can think of at the moment is a Taylor 712ce ordered with 1 11/16 nut width. Below is what's required. PLEASE LIST ANY SUGGESTIONS. I know most likely a 00 will be winning no strumming awards!! Huss or Collins etc do anything? Any other pointers?

SPECS NEEDED:
Smaller than 1 3/4 inch nut. Example 1 11/16 (42.8mm) or 1 23/32 (43.8mm)
Around a 00 body size (000 is bigger than i'm looking for).
14 Fret Neck Join (not a 12 fret)
25 inch or smaller scale length

FWIW, I think you could order a Brook Guitar for that price and specify all your particular needs to your own specifications.

The Torridge Model seems it would be close to what you are after and their prices start from £2450. Their standard nut width is near enough what you are after of 44mm. The standard neck depth is on the thinner side of things which IMO could suit a player with smaller hands as well.

https://www.brookguitars.com/guitars/guitars.html
https://www.ivormairants.co.uk/brook-torridge-spruce-rosewood.html

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Lewy said:

Gareth1234 said:

Thanks Lewy

That fits the bill near perfectly. The only thing that would worry me is going from C shape all her life to a modified V on the Collings 01. Not a write of but would have to spend a good couple hours playing to make sure it wouldn't be uncomfortable. She's playing at events, sometimes 1 hour straight. I wonder if you can get the 01 with a C shape and if anyone out there is selling one if so :-(

The Collings modified V is exceptionally comfortable...you don’t really feel the V when you play it, or at least I don’t.

Thanks Lewy

Will try to get hands on one to try out if the neck's not much more extreme than a C.

Hey BigLicks67

BigLicks67 said:

How about a Lowden S series. Small bodied with 14th fret neck join, 630mm scale and a choice of 43 or 45 mm nut width. Modern neck profile.
Here's an S50 in action but there are much cheaper options than this :

That would also possibly do it, but again they come with 45mm nut as standard and £2500 ish is my budget. So I would have to find someone with a used Lowden S that had specified a 43mm nut on purchase.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Lewy said:

Gareth1234 said:

Thanks Lewy

That fits the bill near perfectly. The only thing that would worry me is going from C shape all her life to a modified V on the Collings 01. Not a write of but would have to spend a good couple hours playing to make sure it wouldn't be uncomfortable. She's playing at events, sometimes 1 hour straight. I wonder if you can get the 01 with a C shape and if anyone out there is selling one if so :-(

The Collings modified V is exceptionally comfortable...you don’t really feel the V when you play it, or at least I don’t.

Thanks Lewy

Will try to get hands on one to try out if the neck's not much more extreme than a C.

Hey BigLicks67

BigLicks67 said:

How about a Lowden S series. Small bodied with 14th fret neck join, 630mm scale and a choice of 43 or 45 mm nut width. Modern neck profile.
Here's an S50 in action but there are much cheaper options than this :

That would also possibly do it, but again they come with 45mm nut as standard and £2500 ish is my budget. So I would have to find someone with a used Lowden S that had specified a 43mm nut on purchase.

Kalimna · July 2018

I was going to suggest a Brook too, but beaten to it! The thing with a custom order is that if the neck shape isn't quite what is being looked for, then they will be able to adjust, within limits, the shape so that it does suit. Brook guitars are superb, and the chaps who make them extremely good to work with - plus you would be supporting a UK business

Adam

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks Adam

Brook looks interesting! Hard thing about it though is not being able to play one or listen to as many samples of standardised models (listening to a recording has its limits I know). There also that stupid psychological thing of playing names that everyone is more up to speed/knowledge with - which probably leads top guys like me missing out on awesome guitars!

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Edit: to. Not sure I would be so brazen as to affirm myself as a top guy. Ha.

Kalimna · July 2018

That's understandable, but if you are in the market for upwards of £2500 on a guitar, then a daytrip/long weekend down to Devon to chat to Brook wouldn't be unreasonable Or, if you are ever up in Scotland near Stirling you are most welcome to pop in and have a shot on mine. Not in the specs you listed (it's a Tavy, kinda jumbo style), but would give you an idea of the Brook 'feel'.

Cheers,

Adam

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks man! The wife's family hails from Barnstable Devon but most have moved out now.

From listening to a few brook sounds I feel like i'd be getting something that wouldn't give me the differences, more sustain and/or better for strumming, that i'm after over the Gibson L00 mentioned in original post. This new guitar will be strummed 98% of the time and needs to sustain well with sparce playing, rather than the drier punchy L00 sound.

Legend, thanks man.

Kalimna · July 2018

Fair enough - good luck finding the right guitar

malcolmkindness · July 2018

I would definitely try Brook. They make lovely instruments, but any I have ever played the neck has been too narrow for me. Might be perfect for your wife. Lowden S models are excellent too, personally I think she would adjust very quickly to the 45mm nut.

KDS · July 2018

+1 brook.... why not pay them a visit

ICBM · July 2018

Gibson CJ-165.

Although it’s a ‘jumbo’ type shape, it’s surprisingly small - I’m pretty sure it’s smaller than a 000, although it's quite deep - and 24-3/4" scale.

It has very much the opposite of the dry/barky L-00 tone, it’s a big open strummy sound - maple body and neck.

Size comparison to a typical Dreadnought...

BahHumbug · July 2018

I have both the Taylor 712ce, as mentioned by the OP and a Brook Torridge as mentioned by others.
The Taylor is really meant to be a fingerpickers guitar and when it was new it's strumming tone was quite muddy and brassy; not particularly pleasant (it's picking tone was delightful though). After 3 or 4 years of fairly intensive playing it did mellow a lot and it is now very pleasant, both as a strummer and a fingerpicker.
The Brook Torridge is much newer, but I suspect will go the same way. Still in its first year of playing, its fingerpicking tone is pleasant, precise and defined, well balanced. Strummed, there is too much complexity. It sounds ok, but a bit harsh. However I really think it will go the same way as the Taylor with a bit of playing.
The Brook feels as light as a feather compared to the Taylor and its neck is small, it makes the Taylor neck feel quite club-like.
I'd recommend both, but the Brook is hand made In England, with some English wood, which is nice. The downside of the Brook is finding one, or waiting for one to be made.
+1 for a visit to the Brook workshop, it's a good experience.

Just a thought on the L-00. Have you tried different strings? They can make a marked difference. Also has it had a chance to break-in?

AliGorie · July 2018

forgive me Gareth but I'm confused re the selection process of this guitar - is it a 'surprise' present ?.

Given the description ya should let her try a small Eastman -

https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_double_oo

crunchman · July 2018

As a couple of people have mentioned, Brook are very good. They somehow make small guitars that sound big. For me their smaller bodied guitars are better than models like the Teign (dreadnought sized).

Having said that, their standard neck profile is very shallow and the fingerboard is very flat. Personally I don't get on with it at all. If I had the money, I'd quite like to go to them and ask them to build something with a bit more depth, maybe a V shape, and with a smaller radius on the fingerboard. If you do go for a Brook, make sure she spends some time playing one to check whether the neck and flat fingerboard are to her tastes. If you go the custom route then you can specify what you want.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks ICBM

Gibson CJ-165.
Although it’s a ‘jumbo’ type shape, it’s surprisingly small - I’m pretty sure it’s smaller than a 000, although it's quite deep - and 24-3/4" scale.

The CJ-165 looks awesome, I imagine it sounds stellar strummed too. It possibly does look closer to a dread than a 000 to me though.

Thanks BahHumbug

BahHumbug
I have both the Taylor 712ce and a brook...
The Brook feels as light as a feather compared to the Taylor and its neck is small, it makes the Taylor neck feel quite club-like...

"Young man what day is it?'' "Why it's Christmas day." Scrooge quotes, couldn't resist. :-)

We both grew up playing Tanglewood TW45s etc so anything more than a 1 11/16 inch neck feels slightly cumbersome if I we don't get on with the neck profile in addition to the nut. Had a 416ce Spring Limited Granadillo once and 410ce Tas Blackwood, neck was always a little bit hard to get my thumb round when playing F chord with my thumb on the bass rather than a bar. Love Gibson's current L-00 and J45 necks.

Just a thought on the L-00. Have you tried different strings? They can make a marked difference. Also has it had a chance to break-in?

Tried Martin SP, Gibson Masterbuilt Premium and Elixer nano (yuk, J45 and L00 sound naff with Elixer in my opinion). Not tried 13s because it would be too much during our sets., sometime's up to 1h 30mins. It will break-in more but L-00 sounded pretty lush straight from the store to tell the truth. It just lacks a bit too much bottom and is the classic barky, dry woody Gibson sound. Plenty of punch, but not always great for light strumming in delicate moments, too dry and not enough sustain. Most of the time the strumming is medium to hard.

Thanks Ali Gorie

AliGorie
forgive me Gareth but I'm confused re the selection process of this guitar - is it a 'surprise' present ?.
Given the description ya should let her try a small Eastman -
https://www.eastmanguitars.com/acoustic_double_oo

No not a surprise present. I am more or less my wife's guitar tech - although I do play too of course, though I am a (grade 8 Jedi) and secondary school teacher by trade. If that Eastman sounds like and is intended as it looks I am not sure I will gain much, if anything, over current L-00.

Went down to check out Lowden S Shapes which seemed pretty reasonable. I would have to buy one used and so can't custom order, but need the nut to be smaller than the Lowden standard 45mm so...

I imagine I will have a hard time finding a used Lowden S from someone who ordered a smaller than standard nut with. DISCLAIMER: I know folks say that a Lowden S strummed isn't the most helpful singer songwriter sound for strumming - at all. I feel like it had more sustain and bass than the L-00 though, however, one will never get fireworks from a small bodied and short scale strummed acoustic I imagine!!! Though sometimes my imaginings are wrong I concede.

Lewy · July 2018

Is she playing mic'd or plugged in generally? Lots of discussion here about different guitar types but if at the end of the day they'd all be going through the great sonic leveller that is DI'ing (leveller as in making 2.5k guitars sound essentially the same as 500 quid ones) then you may get closer to your requirements ...less bark when strummed, better sustain in quiet moments....with some decent compression (or even better multi-band compression as found on something like the LR Baggs Session DI).

Just a thought.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

Thanks Lewy. You are spot on. I was going to preemptively mention this with my last post thought it was already a little long!. I should have probably said in original post.

Allot of the time she's doing this acoustically, sometimes miked/recorded but mostly acoustically. Allot more recording coming up though as moving hose to get a live recording space for gatherings. These times look quite like this.

on Sunday's and a conferences and open mic nights she's doing more of this

and a little in between the two.

L-00 has an Anthem Sl installed which has the mic presence/balance thing tweaked to where it sounds like the guitar rather than adding too much colour either way - had a lot of success with Anthem SL in my own guitar. Have a Fishman Spectrum DI with comp etc and had a Baggs Venue which I moved on. Not always in a situation where we have time to sound check or even have a half decent tech on desk. Trying to get what we want at the source (guitar) first, then doing the best we can in plugged in situations - pick up, external pre amp eq pedal thing, desk, competent or incompetent sound tech.

Gareth1234 · July 2018

house

Gareth1234 · July 2018

P.S heard Martin 00-18V and 00-28V (maybe was VS) prove to be pretty decent strummers in context. If only they did them with the neck specs i'm looking for:

Smaller than 1 3/4 inch nut. Example 1 11/16 (42.8mm) or 1 23/32 (43.8mm)
Around a 00 body size (000 is bigger than i'm looking for).
14 Fret Neck Join (not a 12 fret)
25 inch or smaller scale length

Think old ED gives em a good strumming:

Image: http://images.equipboard.com/uploads/item/image/24939/custom-martin-00-28vs-xl.jpg?v=1524181307

AliGorie · July 2018

Ah - that kind of music - I see your difficulty choosing THE right tool.

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Which guitars between £1500 and £4000 fit these descriptions as standard?

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