Nylon String Acoustics - Educate moi!

Fuengi · March 2018

Not even considered one before but just stumbled across Mac DeMarco playing one on La Blogateque and loved the sound.

Is the tuning the same? What are they like to play open chords with? Do the strings absolutely kill your fingers? How do they compare to steel string acoustics in feel and tone?

VimFuego · March 2018

strings are much easier on fingers but they vibrate a lot more, so your finger placement needs to be much better, much more at right angles to the fretboard.

carlos · March 2018

Wait are you talking classical guitars or ones that could pass for steel string acoustics in shape but in fact use nylon?

Fuengi · March 2018

carlos said:

Wait are you talking classical guitars or ones that could pass for steel string acoustics in shape but in fact use nylon?

The latter. I wouldn't want to play classical.

crunchman · March 2018

A lot of them have very wide necks and flat fingerboards.

ToneControl · March 2018

Fuengi said:

carlos said:

Wait are you talking classical guitars or ones that could pass for steel string acoustics in shape but in fact use nylon?

The latter. I wouldn't want to play classical.

you mean this?

That's a normal classical. the fingerboard is flat, and the nut is about 52mm wide normally

You can tune them how you want, but standard tuning is the same, acoustics and electrics were derived from them.
Normal scale length is 650mm

You can buy models intended for non-classical use by acoustic and electric players. They are usually called "fusion", or "crossover" models
These typically have a radiused fingerboard, and a narrower nut, halfway between normal classical and acoustic widths. They also enable use of your thumb on the bass strings, which is hard or impossible on classicals
The strings are much easier on the fingers. Some people like to use extra-hard tension strings (2 notches up from standard), to make the feel more like a steel-strung.
Trouble is the fusion/crossover models are harder to find, and often cost more

As you can hear from the video, the tone is much mellower than a bright acoustic, more mids and less treble.
open chords are ok, but most people fingerpick with nylon, some play solos with a plectrum

I'd recommend you try a cheap used classical, 52mm nut, flat fingerboard like in the video before rejecting the idea completely - they are not that hard to get used to, especially for open-chord work.

meltedbuzzbox · March 2018

The Yamaha ntx series are great players and a good middle ground

Phil_aka_Pip · March 2018

nylon strings feel to me like playing on wet rubber bands. I don't mind hearing someone else play a classical guitar competently but I'll stick to steel thank you very much

carlos · March 2018

That's a classical guitar in the video. What you do with it, is up to you! Where I'm from, Portugal, classical guitars are the campfire singalong instrument of choice because they're super cheap and easy on the fingers. Willie Nelson plays a classical guitar too for all his country stuff.

If it makes it easier you can lower the action on a nylon string classical quite a lot before you notice any buzz. They come with a really tall relief, something like 3.5mm at the 12th fret, but even low E can go down to 2.5 with no buzz.

steveh · March 2018

FWIW IMHO the following apply (I play a lot of steel-string and nylon):

1. It's much more difficult to get a good sound out of nylon; the strings don't sustain and the wrong nail angle/attack/shape can sound excruciating.
2. Because of the above, it's far more rewarding when you get it right on nylon.
3. Much more variety available in terms of shaping the tone with nylon; it's a more expressive instrument.
4. The available repetoire is far wider and more interesting for nylon from a musical perspective.
5. The left hand fingertips hurt less on nylon - steel can be hard work on these, especially when beginning.
6. Strings last far longer with nylon!

Both are great but very different. Over the years, I've come to prefer nylon but I'm very happy I don't have to make a choice.

DulcetJones · March 2018

In addition to the above posts, the necks are wider, and have a very flat radius, but like any guitar, you can adjust and get use to it. The wider neck allows for more string spacing for the fatter strings and makes it easier(a little) to finger complex chords. Some flamenco players use a capo at the first or second fret to bring the action down just that little bit so they can play those lightening fast licks. Flamenco guitars are very similar to classical, the difference being they are made of lighter wood to sound brighter and usually have one or two clear pickguards to protect the wood when they do the percussive tapping.

AliGorie · March 2018

there are alternatives Fuengi, I had / have a Spanish made 'classical' but found it 'awkward' in my hands - having played steel strung for many decades - so when I was at the stringed instrument making course I decided to make something - a Flamenco / Latin fusion design.
It has typical Spanish / Flamenco body size / shape and scale length but with slightly narrower string spacing / f/board width, a very slightly radius to the fingerboard and slow 'C' shaped neck profile. In Euro spruce and Bosnian Maple. A college friend playing it -

https://flic.kr/p/23m5ptR
Rodrigo y Gabriela play something similar - now Yamaha but they came to fame playing Frank Tate guitars made in Dublin - and from what I gather Frank had previously done the same course I'd done in Glasgow.

DulcetJones · March 2018

AliGorie said:

there are alternatives Fuengi, I had / have a Spanish made 'classical' but found it 'awkward' in my hands - having played steel strung for many decades - so when I was at the stringed instrument making course I decided to make something - a Flamenco / Latin fusion design.
It has typical Spanish / Flamenco body size / shape and scale length but with slightly narrower string spacing / f/board width, a very slightly radius to the fingerboard and slow 'C' shaped neck profile. In Euro spruce and Bosnian Maple. A college friend playing it -
https://flic.kr/p/23m5ptR
Rodrigo y Gabriela play something similar - now Yamaha but they came to fame playing Frank Tate guitars made in Dublin - and from what I gather Frank had previously done the same course I'd done in Glasgow.

That looks great, nice work!

TheBigDipper · April 2018

To add to the mix... I started as a classical guitarist and didn't touch steel strings until I was 17(ish). Nylon strings are very easy on the fingers, low tension compared to steel and have a greater tonal variety than steel depending on how and where you strike the string. Some things are easier to play and some things harder. It depends. It's different and sounds different - in a good way.

I own a Martin 0-16 New Yorker (a reissue, not a 30s original). It's got a classical neck (wide, flat) on a parlour body. Originally with steel strings. For a change, I tried "silk and steel" strings. They work well. Lower tension, but not as low as nylon, responsive to where and how you use the right hand, less of a change from steel strings for the flattop player and sound nice. I'm keeping them on this for a bit of tonal variety.

carlos · April 2018

There's also no or very little fret wear. They'll rust before getting indented.
Action is a bit of a red herring. Pick hard tension strings and you can lower the action to less than 2mm on the treble side 12th fret with no buzz. Nothing like an electric but legato isn't that important to this style of playing. Since saddles are cheap you can have a low action one and a higher one too. Loosen strings and you can change it on the fly .

Phil_aka_Pip · April 2018

I disagree that nylon strings are easier on the fingers. I guarantee your fingers will feel bruised after a session on nylon.

carlos · April 2018

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I disagree that nylon strings are easier on the fingers. I guarantee your fingers will feel bruised after a session on nylon.

I disagree with your disagreement. Nylon is harder to grip strengthwise but won't bite into fingers that haven't got callussed yet. Against a .009 set on a solid body it's hard going, but I think we're comparing w/ steel string acoustics here. A .013 steel set has double the tension of a nylon string set. Yeah, I looked it up.

Phil_aka_Pip · April 2018

@carlos I use 11s on acoustic - 13s would be like steel hawsers. I had way rather play on steel 11s than nylon.

AliGorie · April 2018

to be blunt - I'd suggest u'r hands / fingers aren't developed enough if you find nylon strung an effort.
They may not be for you as fare as feel goes but if u'r 'match fit you should be able to play on them effortlessly for an extended time for practice or performance.
There is a physicality involved in playing guitar - you have to developer athletic fingers / hands.
btw I use 13-56 on my guitars + a 12 string.

Grunfeld · April 2018

meltedbuzzbox said:

The Yamaha ntx series are great players and a good middle ground

+1

carlos · April 2018

AliGorie said:

They may not be for you as fare as feel goes but if u'r 'match fit you should be able to play on them effortlessly for an extended time for practice or performance.

IMO the hardest part for an electric guitar player would be all the work the pinky must do in a classical repertoire.

steveh · April 2018

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@carlos I use 11s on acoustic - 13s would be like steel hawsers. I had way rather play on steel 11s than nylon.

Seriously, you need to Man Up! 11s are for electrics (and whimps). Nowhere near enough tension to get the top moving on a decent steel-string. No wonder it hurts you less than nylon!
Have to agree with AliGorie - 13-56 is about right. FFS I use 14-59 when tuning down.

We'll all agree it's not easy to transition to steel-string when you've been playing electric; we've all been there and it hurts but persevere and its well worth it and the pain is gone as your fingers strengthen. The thing about acoustics, both steel and (especially) nylon, is the more effort you put in, the more you get out. You have to be able to dig in with the right hand to get the tone out.

Worth pointing out that nylon strings come in different "tensions" which is analogous to steel/electric guague. "Hard" tension gives you the stiffest feel. Most use "medium".

Phil_aka_Pip · April 2018

@steveh mate, you're talking to a bloke with perennial pains in the finger joints, who went from 9s to 10s on the electric in search of better tone quality and stayed there. I don't think there's much chance of me using anything heavier than 11s. One very good reason is that I like a plain G, and the thickest plain string I know how to get is 0,22 which works as a G in a set of 11s. Anything thicker would have to be wound, and that's a no-no.

TimmyO · April 2018

It might not fit the pure 'acoustic' definition but I'm intrigued by the Gibson Chet Atkins nylon string - have seen them used but never got my hands on one

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Nylon String Acoustics - Educate moi!

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