Bottleneck Blues - Fingerstyle

McSwaggerty · April 2017

I recently got a Gretsch Boxcar Resonator...Wood body / Round neck ....and it was supplied with Light Gauge Strings 12 - 54. As I mainly play in Open G tuning, fingerstyle... I upped the string gauge to mediums 13 - 56 and this was a lot better for bottleneck. Could I go even heavier ? say 16 -56 ...without damaging the guitar ? ...if so, would this be beneficial for Bottleneck in Open G ?

Also, what type of slide do you guys use.? I have a glass slide, should I be looking for something heavier...brass etc....or is it just a matter of taste ??

Any advice or thoughts, greatly appreciated............

Lewy · April 2017

I don't know how the Boxcar is constructed but you should be ok going heavier if you're tuning down to Open G. If you've already got 13-56's on and it's fine, then upping the 1st string to a 15 or 16 isn't going to make much difference in the overall tension on the guitar. For country blues bottleneck playing, you don't really need to go particularly heavy on the bass strings because you don't slide on them too often. The top two strings are where it matters.

Slide choice is all a matter of taste - I use everything....glass, steel, bronze, brass. I can't quite stomach the price of Wolfram's tungsten carbide ones though! Looking at the originators of the blues bottleneck style, they all tended to use glass or quite thin metal compared to what the received wisdom tells you you need these days (lead crystal and heavy brass etc).

Similarly, things like 16-59 reso string sets are fairly recent inventions - Booker White and Son House would have had significantly lighter strings on their guitars and to my ears they got more snap and articulate bass as a result when compared to modern players who automatically put as heavy a string as they can get away with on their guitars.

McSwaggerty · April 2017

Lewy said

Similarly, things like 16-59 reso string sets are fairly recent inventions - Booker White and Son House would have had significantly lighter strings on their guitars and to my ears they got more snap and articulate bass as a result when compared to modern players who automatically put as heavy a string as they can get away with on their guitars.

Thanks, l found 12's too light and 13's a lot better ...and was curious. I will try a heavier top 2 next string change and see how it goes. I have been messed around for years with bottleneck, but guitars usually went back to standard tuning after a week or so.
So here we go again....for about the 47th time.....

stimpsonslostson · April 2017

Slide material is a matter of preference. I like a thick ceramic slide for bottleneck playing, I have brass and glass slides too, but keep returning to the ceramic. for lap style get a Shubb tone bar.

TommyVercetti · April 2017

Interesting question. I just bought my first resonator - a Gretsch Honey Dipper (400 euros from Thomann, £625 here!)

I've got glass and nickel slides and they are quite noticeably different, how does ceramic compare?

I just bought a glass one though have contemplated making my own...worth it?

erky32 · April 2017

I found thick glass best for electric slide, heavy brass or glass is good for acoustic, brass probably more attack. I've got a ceramic which behaves similar to glass, but although it feels smooth, it has a certain roughness when sliding, whereas glass is dead smooth. But the ceramic seems to give a slightly warmer sound. It's still all new to me tho, I'm experimenting. But either thin metal or thin glass dont work for me, both lack in definition. Have fun!!

AliGorie · April 2017

yeah - heavy glass here.
some get pricey - then there's those £280 thingies - em, what did / does Ry Cooder use ?.
just fo fun -
https://www.wolframslides.com/wolframstore.php?initCategory=slides&pn=Slide&pd=solid&20tungsten&20carbide#/store ;

McSwaggerty · May 2017

£280 for a slide !......that's nuts

proggy · May 2017

£280! they must be selling like hot cakes.

Lewy · May 2017

Hmmm...well whatever works for him but you can't ignore that vastly superior slide players to him don't seem hampered by not having a £300 tungsten carbide slide...Steve James, Mike Dowling etc How does Debashish Bhattacharya manage!

EDIT: I've become more familiar with his slide playing now and there are no vastly superior slide players to him. He's one of the best I've ever seen and I'm not sure how I've managed to overlook his slide playing!

Wolfram · May 2017

Hi - David Browne, founder of Wolfram Slides here - thought I'd chip in. I wanted to give a little background on these slides and why they cost so much.

I chose to use tungsten carbide because it combines and exceeds the best properties of glass (hardness and smooth surface) and metal (density and richness of tone). Tungsten carbide is about twice as dense as steel, and nearly as hard as diamond - these slides sound like nothing else in the world, with a rock solid fundamental, controllable overtones like the best crystal glass slides, and exceptional sustain. My aim was to create the ultimate guitar slide, with no compromises, and everything is machined by hand to absolute perfection.

It's worth pointing out that I'm not the first to make a tungsten carbide guitar slide. This honour falls to US engineer John Lynch, who made six to my knowledge some years ago; these slides cost $900 each just to manufacture. Don't underestimate the challenges in making a slide from a material which can only be marked with a cut diamond. I put a huge amount of effort into finding a way to make them more affordable, and we really make very little on each one. While I understand the cost is very high compared to other slides, anyone who has experience working with hard metals is astonished that we can do it at this price point.

As to sales, we're selling them as fast as we can make them - it takes 6-8 weeks start to finish to produce a slide, with industrial carbide sintering processes in the USA or Spain, then they are ground with specialist diamond tooling and polished with diamond paste completely by hand by one guy at the only workshop in the country I've found that has the capability to make them to my quality standard. If you're interested, you can read the press reviews here https://wolframslides.com/reviews.php .

I don't really want to get into a discussion along the lines of "xxx was good enough for yyy". There's no one slide for everybody; traditionalists will want to stick with tradition, and there are lots of great choices around - for glass, my good friend Ian McWee of Diamond Bottlenecks' Ultimate crystal glass slides are the best in the world. For those that want to explore something new, I offer innovative slides of unmatched quality, using some completely unique materials, at a range of price points (our stainless steel slides start at £35.99) - every one machined from solid material (no chopped up bits of tubing here) and polished to a mirror sheen by hand.

Image: https://wolframslides.com/images/slides/Concord/medium_Concord-x2.jpg

Image: https://wolframslides.com/images/slides/MSASSS-Raven/medium_MSASSS-Raven-x2.jpg

Hope that gives some insight into the thinking and motivation behind our slides. Very happy to answer any questions - either here, or email me via the Wolfram website.

Cheers,
David

earwighoney · May 2017

McSwaggerty said:

I recently got a Gretsch Boxcar Resonator...Wood body / Round neck ....and it was supplied with Light Gauge Strings 12 - 54. As I mainly play in Open G tuning, fingerstyle... I upped the string gauge to mediums 13 - 56 and this was a lot better for bottleneck. Could I go even heavier ? say 16 -56 ...without damaging the guitar ? ...if so, would this be beneficial for Bottleneck in Open G ?
Also, what type of slide do you guys use.? I have a glass slide, should I be looking for something heavier...brass etc....or is it just a matter of taste ??
Any advice or thoughts, greatly appreciated............

Are you new to playing slide guitar? IMO one of the trickiest things about playing slide guitar to begin with is having the weight of the slide on a playing finger and I found it worked better for myself to start with a lighter slide than moving up.

As for materials, the heavier the slide the more sustain it will have. A lighter slide provides a bit more control if needs be.

Lewy · May 2017

Wolfram said:

Thank you for the input and info David.

The black coated ones look interesting (and reasonably priced)

Rocker · May 2017

There are lots of 'round' bits in a Bigsby that could be used as slides. So a Bigsby might, after all, be good for something....

AliGorie · May 2017

Lewy said:

Hmmm...well whatever works for him but you can't ignore that vastly superior slide players to him don't seem hampered by not having a £300 tungsten carbide slide...Steve James, Mike Dowling etc How does Debashish Bhattacharya manage!

Now u'r talkin SLIDE Lewy, love the masterly technique and music - it was VM Bhatt and Ry C on what became a Grammy winning recording - VM plays a chrome plated steel bar with round tip for single string playing whilst playing the other strings as drone.
RC just uses a heavy glass slide - both these guys 'expenses' would allow them to be 'seen' playing anything but thats what makes a Grammy.
As I said above - I like the sound of glass - seems more transparent allowing U to hear the instruments sound, it's like the discussion recently about the sound of frets - stainless sounds different - the slide is a moveable fret - so yeah, it's gonna have an 'effect' on the sound produced.
Come to think of it, maybe there's a market for T/Carbide frets.

McSwaggerty · May 2017

earwighoney said:
Are you new to playing slide guitar? IMO one of the trickiest things about playing slide guitar to begin with is having the weight of the slide on a playing finger and I found it worked better for myself to start with a lighter slide than moving up.

As for materials, the heavier the slide the more sustain it will have. A lighter slide provides a bit more control if needs be.

That's good advice, although l have been playing guitar for years, l have not really put my heart and soul into Learning Slide Guitar. I am quite happy with the progress l am making so far with my cheapo Dunlop glass slide....there's no way my ability so far can justify buying a £280 Wolfram, however, l probably will invest in a Heavier glass Diamond Bottleneck from Ian McWee when l work out what size is best for me.....length and tightness on Pinky......

earwighoney · May 2017

McSwaggerty said:

earwighoney said:
Are you new to playing slide guitar? IMO one of the trickiest things about playing slide guitar to begin with is having the weight of the slide on a playing finger and I found it worked better for myself to start with a lighter slide than moving up.

As for materials, the heavier the slide the more sustain it will have. A lighter slide provides a bit more control if needs be.

That's good advice, although l have been playing guitar for years, l have not really put my heart and soul into Learning Slide Guitar. I am quite happy with the progress l am making so far with my cheapo Dunlop glass slide....there's no way my ability so far can justify buying a £280 Wolfram, however, l probably will invest in a Heavier glass Diamond Bottleneck from Ian McWee when l work out what size is best for me.....length and tightness on Pinky......

I have a Diamond Bottleneck slide, not sure the model - picked it up in a guitar shop and I like it a lot, it doesn't have much sustain and I have found for my style of playing anyway I prefer using it for electric guitar and using the brass Rockslide which is a bit on the weighty side of things (70g listed value) and I found it took a bit of time to get used to but I like it a lot.

Good call about slide size - picking the correct size for length and tightness IMO is more important than material.

AliGorie · May 2017

Swaggie, as the guys say - start by finding something that ‘fit’s’ and feels manageable in size and weight on you’r chosen finger - some use ring, I use pinky.
The whole experience is a bit like when learning to fingerpick and adding an extra / other finger into the process you have to do a bit of work on timing / pitch accuracy.
I hardly play with a slide these days and when I put one on - it’s like going back to the snooker / pool table after a while off - it takes a while to 'get u’r hand and eye in’ to the same level as u’d been before, as for whither that would warrant the purchase of a hand made £700 Que

Wolfram · May 2017

Ian McWee and I co-wrote The Slide Guide article for Acoustic Magazine last year on choosing a slide, in which we explore the key characteristics (density, hardness and surface finish) and how they affect tone.

There's quite a complex set of relationships going on, but in general denser materials will tend to bring out more of the natural sound of the guitar; lighter, harder materials will be more acoustically active and tend to impart more of a tonal character of their own --- this is where the extreme density and hardness of tungsten carbide breaks the rules.

In all cases, the quality of the surface finish is absolutely critical in defining the tone - the harder the material, the more important that finish is. Ian and I both invest significantly in polishing the surfaces of our slides - in Ian's case this applies to everything from his hand-blown crystal slides to his real bottleneck slides. A rough surface will give you a rough, scratchy sound, whatever the material. I often hear steel slides described as 'harsh' or 'scratchy' - this has nothing whatsoever to do with the material (which can sound absolutely beautiful), and everything to do with the sub-standard finish on cheap steel slides. The reason for this is simple - it's difficult, time-consuming and expensive to achieve a perfect finish on hard stainless steel, so mass producers of slides don't do it - nearly 1/3 of the production cost of one of my steel slides goes into hardening and polishing the surface to get it absolutely perfect, and we do that because it makes such a difference to the tone.

One other thing worth saying about the weight of the slide - particularly applicable to beginners. A slide that's too light will not engage with the string properly, and you will find yourself needing to use more pressure, which will tend to fret out (contact the frets). Then you need to compensate with higher action and/or heavier strings; pretty soon you find yourself needing a dedicated guitar set up for slide. Conversely, a slide with sufficient weight will engage well with the string with much less pressure, negating the need for heavy strings or high action; this also makes it far easier to control and play.

For anyone interested, the complete article was published in the Summer 2016 issue of Acoustic Magazine.

Cheers,
David

earwighoney · May 2017

Wolfram said:

Ian McWee and I co-wrote The Slide Guide article for Acoustic Magazine last year on choosing a slide, in which we explore the key characteristics (density, hardness and surface finish) and how they affect tone.

There's quite a complex set of relationships going on, but in general denser materials will tend to bring out more of the natural sound of the guitar; lighter, harder materials will be more acoustically active and tend to impart more of a tonal character of their own --- this is where the extreme density and hardness of tungsten carbide breaks the rules.

In all cases, the quality of the surface finish is absolutely critical in defining the tone - the harder the material, the more important that finish is. Ian and I both invest significantly in polishing the surfaces of our slides - in Ian's case this applies to everything from his hand-blown crystal slides to his real bottleneck slides. A rough surface will give you a rough, scratchy sound, whatever the material. I often hear steel slides described as 'harsh' or 'scratchy' - this has nothing whatsoever to do with the material (which can sound absolutely beautiful), and everything to do with the sub-standard finish on cheap steel slides. The reason for this is simple - it's difficult, time-consuming and expensive to achieve a perfect finish on hard stainless steel, so mass producers of slides don't do it - nearly 1/3 of the production cost of one of my steel slides goes into hardening and polishing the surface to get it absolutely perfect, and we do that because it makes such a difference to the tone.

One other thing worth saying about the weight of the slide - particularly applicable to beginners. A slide that's too light will not engage with the string properly, and you will find yourself needing to use more pressure, which will tend to fret out (contact the frets). Then you need to compensate with higher action and/or heavier strings; pretty soon you find yourself needing a dedicated guitar set up for slide. Conversely, a slide with sufficient weight will engage well with the string with much less pressure, negating the need for heavy strings or high action; this also makes it far easier to control and play.

For anyone interested, the complete article was published in the Summer 2016 issue of Acoustic Magazine.

Cheers,
David

David, thanks for the explanations regarding the finishing and materials - some interesting points.

Epsilon · May 2017

With acoustics I use one of my two Diamond Bottlenecks. Main slide guitar is a 50s Framus parlour guitar tuned to open C. I dislike the sound of metal slides on steel string acoustics (though I use a brass slide for electric guitars).

The difference in sustain between a heavy Diamond bottleneck and your average Dunlop slide is significant. There are literally seconds more sustain on the Diamonds.

I met the guys behind Wolfram Slides and tried one out. They are quite remarkable, and genuinely the best that I've ever played. The material they use is very expensive, hence the price. I don't play slide that often, so unfortunately I couldn't justify spending so much extra on purchasing a Wolfram. If I was primarily a slide player I would seriously consider it though!

Lewy · May 2017

This has been an educational thread as it's got me looking at videos of Martin Simpson playing slide guitar and I have to confess I've criminally underrated him. In my defence, my opinion had been formed on the basis of videos like this which are pretty underwhelming (especially tonally):

So looking a bit further I happened upon this, and now I can see why someone could feel justified in putting their name to a £300 slide:

....because that's some of the best slide playing I've ever seen. The Fred McDowell/RJ/Son House homage is clear but he's added a level of sophistication beyond that and the tone and articulation are incredible. I'm presuming this video predates the @Wolfram slides by some time but you can totally see why someone who played with this approach (and ability) would value even marginal gains that a smoother feeling and sounding slide would give them.

I now need to find as many recordings of him playing slide as I can (with a mic...not that bloody piezo!)

McSwaggerty · May 2017

Does this glass slide light you up ?

McSwaggerty · May 2017

Or a hip flask ?

BigLicks67 · May 2017

Michael Chapman just uses his wedding ring. : >

AliGorie · May 2017

good stuff.
this guy's done the rounds before but he puts a smile on my face.
ya see, what I’ve noticed in the music biz is how serious it’s all gotten - wheres the FUN, the humor, the dare I say it - joy. Nah - it’s how cool and awesome am I with all my exclusivity
Well thankfully this guy’s got it in spades.

and again, same tune with a must have ‘apprentice built modified dread’ oil can guitar -

mug slide - yeah -

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